Neanderthal Art 110,000 Years Old?

[Philip]

What might this mean?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/neandertha ... 1519326000

[RickD]

What might this mean?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/neandertha ... 1519326000

I think it means that I can't read the article unless I subscribe.

[DBowling]

Here's another link
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/201 ... n-science/

[Philip]

One question I have is, do we too narrowly, genetically, define the range of humanity.

[DBowling]

One question I have is, do we too narrowly, genetically, define the range of humanity.

I don't think so... here's why...

My conversations back and forth with "the kid" have led me to the following conclusions.
1. At the time the Bible was written, every human being on the planet was species homo sapiens sapiens. And every human on the planet had a common genetic ancestry which can be traced back to biologically modern humans from Africa who were also species homo sapiens sapiens.
2. I believe that Scripture teaches that mankind's spiritual genesis began with the historical Adam and Eve. I am also convinced that both Scripture and archaeology place the historical Adam and Eve in Neolithic Mesopotamia somewhere between 5000 and 6000 BC.
By that time, species homo sapiens sapiens was the only hominid species on the planet. So the historical Adam and Eve were also species homo sapiens sapiens. And all the other hominid species were extinct long before the time of Adam and Eve, the birth of human civilization, and mankind's spiritual genesis.

So from a both a biological and spiritual perspective, I am convinced that God's image bearers in Scripture refer specifically to species homo sapiens sapiens.

[Philip]

DB: mankind's spiritual genesis began with

Yes - the line from Adam to Christ. But what of those that may have been created far before - per the Heiser speculation? It certainly doesn't necessitate that ALL of mankind were homo sapiens sapiens - does it?

[DBowling]

DB: mankind's spiritual genesis began with

Yes - the line from Adam to Christ. But what of those that may have been created far before - per the Heiser speculation? It certainly doesn't necessitate that ALL of mankind were homo sapiens sapiens - does it?

I'm content to let anthropologists argue about whether all subspecies of homo sapiens are genetically 'human' or whether just our sub-species, species homo sapiens sapiens, are truly 'human'.

I think the "out of Africa" theory which proposes that all humans on the planet can trace their genetic ancestry back to members of species homo sapiens sapiens in Africa gives support to the premise that species homo sapiens sapiens is a more precise definition of what it means to be biologically human.

From a Scriptural perspective, we have some identifiers for the nature of "mankind" that God created in Genesis 1:26-30.
1. They are image bearers of God
2. They were tasked with filling the earth.
3. They were given dominion over every plant and animal.

The only hominid species I'm aware of that meets all the above criteria is species homo sapiens sapiens.

So from both a genetic and Scriptural perspective I am still inclined to view species homo sapiens sapiens as the only hominid species to meet the requirements for "image bearer of God".

But again from a spiritual perspective, Adam and Eve are the first humans to have a spiritual relationship with God, so species homo sapiens sapiens is the only hominid species to have relationship with God.

[Philip]

DB, that makes sense when we consider that there is a fallen man, and a reborn one - with the difference in the latter as being one who walks by the spirit. Still, both are men.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

See this is what I've been saying all along-Neanderthals were fully human, just not our subspecies.
They were certainly intelligent enough to make art, string, leather, fire from scratch, medicine, glue, etc. They had language capability as well because of the FOXP2 gene both us and them have.
However the main kicker is why did their culture remain so stagnant for so very long? Partly, their bodies were so specialized that they kind of had it made, and didn't need many tools. Animals don't need many advanced tools because they're specialized for a niche or two. Also, they often lived in isolated and rough conditions where experimenting on new ideas was risky and unlikely to happen. And it seems their brain may have been more specialized for survival than us-however they had the same IQ potential as us, just they used it in different ways.
So I would call them Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, a distinct race of true humans waaaay back in the day.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

Why couldn't we say the ancestor of us and Neanderthals were Adam and Eve?
Homo sapiens heilderbergensis (maybe antecessor) were the ancestor of both subspecies.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

DB, that makes sense when we consider that there is a fallen man, and a reborn one - with the difference in the latter as being one who walks by the spirit. Still, both are men.

Could that be a reason why God made hominids and apes? To show us humans of the animalistic or "fallen" ways of humanity verses the godly (we are made in the image of God, we're like nature's kings and queens) and reborn way?

[DBowling]

Why couldn't we say the ancestor of us and Neanderthals were Adam and Eve?
Homo sapiens heilderbergensis (maybe antecessor) were the ancestor of both subspecies.

From my perspective the answer to that question is pretty simple...

The Genesis 5 and 11 genealogies (Septuagint version), Genesis 4. Mesopotamian history, and Mesopotamian archaeology all indicate that Adam and Eve lived around 5000 to 6000 BC during the Neolithic revolution. I've gone through that data in detail in our previous conversations.

Which means that all the hominid species with the exception of species homo sapiens sapiens were extinct loooooooong before the time of Adam and Eve.

There is no Scriptural or archaeological evidence to indicate that Adam and Eve lived prior to the Neolithic revolution... much less tens or hundreds of thousands of years prior to the Neolithic revolution.
You just can't get there based on Scripture, archaeology, or history.

[abelcainsbrother]

We have been totally mislead about the truth because of evolution.You see because of the belief life evolves they have us believing in one big world going back about 4.6 billion years when in fact we have two totally different worlds over billions of years. So when they find hominids or neanderthal they automatically see one big world so that life can evolve.And they have made up myths in order to make evolution more believable and I have brought up a few examples in the past. But even biblically I see no reason to believe humans are in anyway related to both hominids and neanderthal. Because it tells us that God created them and so they were new creations that had never been created before. There was some life God made and some life God created and with man and woman he created them and so they were new creations that had never been created before.Only the life God made was based on life God had created before. The former world perished completely and then there was a gap of time until God decided to make this world and so there is no way any life in the former world is related to the life in this world we now live in. This is why evolutionists are searching for Parasite Eve too.

[RickD]

We have been totally mislead about the truth because of evolution.You see because of the belief life evolves they have us believing in one big world going back about 4.6 billion years when in fact we have two totally different worlds over billions of years. So when they find hominids or neanderthal they automatically see one big world so that life can evolve.And they have made up myths in order to make evolution more believable and I have brought up a few examples in the past. But even biblically I see no reason to believe humans are in anyway related to both hominids and neanderthal. Because it tells us that God created them and so they were new creations that had never been created before. There was some life God made and some life God created and with man and woman he created them and so they were new creations that had never been created before.Only the life God made was based on life God had created before. The former world perished completely and then there was a gap of time until God decided to make this world and so there is no way any life in the former world is related to the life in this world we now live in. This is why evolutionists are searching for Parasite Eve too.

ACB,

That's very interesting. I wonder if anyone has come up with a theory having to do with two worlds, and a GAP in between. Maybe you should start a thread or 50 about this topic.

[Philip]

It's interesting that Hugh Ross thinks Adam could have lived as long ago as 50,000 years.