America or Mexico?

[Gabrielman]

Recently I have joined a page on Face Book called Stand With Arizona (and Against Illegal Immigration). This page is in support of the new law in Arizona called SB1070. Now things have seemingly turned from the bill and claims of it being racist (which it isn't) to saying that California is "Occupied Mexico" and things are starting to look like they may get out of hand...
Mexican Students Knock U.S. Flag to the Ground
L.A. Teacher Calls for Mexican Revolt in the U.S.
And this man is teaching our kids......
Want to see something very disturbing? Click the Vid below.
WARNING: CONTAINS STRONG LANGUAGE. NOT FOR THE KIDS TO WATCH!
S.F. Minuteman and Tea Party protest of May Day Illegal Aliens

This is all for now, more to come though. Look, if you don't like our laws, or our country then GET OUT! Go back to Mexico and fix your own country! This didn't use to be about Mexican illegals, it used to be about ALL illegals! Now they have turned it into something it is not. I am for immigration, just do it the right way!

Please share your thoughts with me on this topic. Something needs to be done about this, and violence should not be the solution.

[DannyM]

Gab,

Shocking! It seems you have an element with a skewed 'liberal' agenda over there as we have here. Funny how these 'liberal' types object to one of the most fundamental of liberal ideals...free speach. Until our nations wake up and take to the streets these phony charges of 'racism' will continue, while the real racists are the 'liberal,' marxist types intent on the overthrow of traditional conservative society and family values.

[Gabrielman]

Parents Express Anger Over Cinco De Mayo Flap
Does it get any more ridiculous than this? What is this country coming to?

What is worse, the New York Times wrote on the new law in Arizona saying "This new bill would make it a crime to be an illegal immigrant." ..... Well DUH!!!!! What part of ILLEGAL do they not get!? You know what I have to say?

THIS IS AMERICA! GOD BLESS THE USA!!!!!! GET LEGAL OR GET OUT! HAVE PRIDE IN YOUR COUNTRY!!!!

[RickD]

My first reaction when I heard this story was to be angry. How could kids be told to take off clothes with American Flags or go home? After I thought more about this story, I changed my mind a little. A student in the video said that there is racism between latinos and caucasians in the school. I'm not sure I believe the 4 students wearing the American Flags were so innocent. If, and only if, they just wore the clothes without saying anything or without taunting the mexicans, then I believe they did nothing wrong. I kinda believe they were only wearing the American flag to stir up a little trouble. While I still think it was wrong to make them change or go home. I think I may have to brush up on my Spanish, because I may be needing to speak the language in the near future if this Pres. administration keeps allowing illegal immigrants to run free here.

[cslewislover]

About the language, yes . . . I'm getting so depressed about it. I've been trying to find a job for two months now--with my lack of experience and education in modern office programs, and with the economy, it's very hard. But, what really gets me too is that so many jobs here either require you to be bilingual, or make it a preference. So those jobs aren't open to me either. To me, you now have a better chance of getting a job here if you happened to come from Latin America, either legally or illegally. As for so much of the problems we're having in this country over the related issues, if our country had just stopped issuing birth certificates to babies born to foreign parents, well, there'd be far far less of a problem. Other countries don't do this, and other countries also require you to learn the language there, yet our country is so often maligned.

Anyway, there will always be people who are racist, but I think this issue of the holiday is one where a lot of people disagree with it who aren't racist. Kids shouldn't have to recognize the holiday of another country. Ethnic groups of course have the freedom to celebrate whatever holiday they wish, but our schools shouldn't be pushing foreign holidays. Where I live, the downtown area is mostly Hispanic, so the city actually helps celebrate Cinco de Mayo downtown. Yet, there was no 4th of July celebration downtown. Our governments should not be involved with celebrating another country's independence celebrations, especially ones where part of the population keeps voicing their desire to take us over.

[Jac3510]

As conservative as I am, I actually oppose the Arizona law, and I think conservatives are doing themselves irreparable harm in supporting it.

[Canuckster1127]

Jac, we agree.

[RickD]

As conservative as I am, I actually oppose the Arizona law, and I think conservatives are doing themselves irreparable harm in supporting it.

Jac, Do you mean you don't support law enforcement being able to arrest people in this country illegally? Or is it something else that you don't support? I do see how people who are politicians that claim to be conservatives(ie Republican) may be doing harm to their political careers. If Democrats support amnesty for illegal aliens, those illegals would be much more likely to vote Democrat. Isn't it amazing how politicians will sell out just about anything for votes and political power?

[RickD]

Jac, we agree.

Bart, what is it about the law that you wouldn't support?

[Canuckster1127]

Speaking for myself, on technical grounds, I believe border enforcement is a Federal Task, not a state.

On moral grounds, I think US immigration has been selective and for years when it was convenient and provided a cheap labor force, illegal immigration was winked at. Now that the economy is troubled and the jobs that many of these illegal immigrants have been doing are somewhat more attractive politicians turn to a tried and true method of diverting attention from their own contributions to the issues. Xenophobia or fanning the flames of fear for those rotten "others" who are taking "our" jobs is as old as mankind. It plays upon fear, greed and distrust of others who are conveniently scapegoated for our problems. It would be one things if it were simply a matter of rounding up illegal immigrants working here and sending them home to their families. We have established illegal immigrants here with their families for whom rounding them up and sending them back will destroy lives and destroy families. Further the way our laws are set up, many of the children here are technically US citizens by birth.

I understand the arguments on principle against illegal immigrants and I'd be more inclined to give them credence if it weren't for the impact on families and human beings made in God's image. Further, many of the voices raised loudest in the witch hunt for these type of laws are the same people who make the political and economic decisions that attracted and held these people here for their convenience when times were good and, for example, they couldn't find other people to mow their lawns, clean their houses and pick their crops seasonally in order to keep prices in this country artificially low.

When state politicians choose to move law enforcement to their venue on weak constitutional grounds and then raise enforcement levels on people that they've had the power to address earlier but didn't because it was economically inconvenient, then it ceases to be a matter of principle and one of oppression in my opinion. I just don't believe as a follower of Christ that destroying families and selectively enforcing laws based on economic factors is something that reflects the values of Christians. That doesn't mean I necessarily support the status quo and doing nothing or that I don't think illegal immigration is an issue that needs to be addressed. I just don't believe that appealing to the basest human emotions of greed, fear and xenophobia when it is economically driven reflects the values of love that I believe God calls us to act upon.

I recognize the problem and agree it needs to be addressed. The means that Arizonia is employing are not ones that I would support.

[Jac3510]

Jac, Do you mean you don't support law enforcement being able to arrest people in this country illegally? Or is it something else that you don't support? I do see how people who are politicians that claim to be conservatives(ie Republican) may be doing harm to their political careers. If Democrats support amnesty for illegal aliens, those illegals would be much more likely to vote Democrat. Isn't it amazing how politicians will sell out just about anything for votes and political power?

Most of this post is why I disagree with the law. While everything you said here is popularly argued in the conservative media (and the media generally), almost all of it is rhetoric designed at inflamming passions. Surprisingly little has any actual basis in fact. Let me give you some examples:

1. You don't arrest people for infractions. You arrest them for crimes. Technically, it is not a crime to be here illegally; it is an infraction. What the Arizona law does is formally make it a crime to be here illegally. Thus, this law is NOT designed to enforce the law, as most argue; it creates new laws.

2. It is not the job of law enforcement to arrest people for being here illegally; it is there job to arrest people who break the law (i.e., drug trafficers).

3. No one, including Democrats, are supporting amnesty. Amnesty, by definition, is the pardon of offenses. If the illegals are granted amnesty, then there is absolutely no penalty. By asking them to pay a fine, back-taxes, learn English, and go to the back of the paper-work line, you are certainly not granting them amnesty. You are requiring them to pay their debt to society. In short, amnesty is NOT the same thing as a pathway to citizenship. That the conservative media attempts to make it as such is disingenuous and downright discpicable on their part.

With that said, why don't I support the law? Several reasons, the biggest of which is that it is simply unnecessary in that it creates a new crime. Second, it directs sparce resources away from extremely important issues, in that it asks law enforcement officers to focus on issues they did not have to before. Third, it risks harrassing real American citizens based on nothing more than race (note: I am NOT saying the bill is racist; that is such a tired argument). Before the law was passed, a natural born Latino teenager had nothing to worry about; now, he has to worry about cops making up reasons to stop him and verify his citizenship. If you don't think that is a big deal, ask yourself how you would feel if you were constantly having to prove you were a real American citizen.

Politically, I think this was downright STUPID of conservatives to push for the following reasons:

First, in politics, whether you like it or not, perception is reality. The law looks racist. Worse, it looks anti-immigrant. Note: it does NOT look anti-ILLEGAL=immigrant. It looks anti-immigrant because it requires ALL immigrants, legal or not, to carry immigration papers. And guess what? A state-issued driver's license is not sufficient. You have to carry around actual papers proving that you are here legally. It says, in effect, that good, law-abiding US citizens are presumed guilty until they prove their innocence. Like it or not, since that only applies to one ethnic group in practice, it looks racist. Now, if it is the goal of conservatives to be an all-white party, this was the perfect move to make. If it was their goal to alienate ALL Latinos, whether legal or illegal, they are doing that with breathtaking efficiency.

Second, conservatives would do well to make the 2010 elections about Obama and his idiotic policies. This gets them off message. It distracts from the government takeover of healthcare, the bad economy, massive decifits, runaway spending, and increased taxes. In short, it gives Obama and co. ammunition. Lations were angry at Obama for not pushing through immigration reform. All this is going to do is push them back into his corner, which will seriously jeapordize their chances in the mid-terms.

Third, this strengthens Obama's hand after the elections, whatever happens. Simply, he now has a mandate to do immigration reform. It doesn't matter if there is a Democrat or Republican congress. He will pass something--even if it is a solid, conservative, Republican plan--and HE will get the credit for it in the Latino community, which will make him almost unbeatable in 2012.

The bottom line is that this was STUPID.

So as not to only complain, let me offer a solution:

Conservatives need to adopt a pro-immigration platform rather than an anti-illegal-immigration platform. It not only makes economical and political sense, it makes moral sense. We are a nation of immigrants. It is absolutely wrong of us to do any less.

Second, we need to stop with the "secure the border" talk when discussing the immigration issue. We DO need to secure the border, but NOT because of immigration problems. That is a national security issue, no more, and no less.

Third, we need to make it very easy to come here legally so that people will not want to come here illegally. So long as we can confirm that you are not a felon in your home country and have no ties to terrorist networks, we should accept you with open arms. Once you are here, you get a probationary citizenship. You go two or three years without breaking the law, you become a permanent citizen. Come one, come all. We should also adopt a very open guest worker program.

Fourth, we DO need to offer a pathway to citizenship for those who are already here illegally. I'm sorry, but you just aren't going to deport 12 million people. Further, there is NO OTHER CRIME in this country that has NO forgiveness (except maybe murder). In every other crime, you pay your penalty and you are square with society. But conservatives act like illegal immigration is the unforgivable sin. You came here illegally? Sucks to be you! Go back to your home country! NO FORGIVENESS! Forget forgiveness . . . there's nothing they can even do to make amends?!?

And we wonder why minorty groups support liberals . . . we accuse liberals of selling out to pick up minority votes. Truth be told, we're pushing them into their arms by our anti-immigration policies. I may be a natural born American citizen, but I don't have any more natural right to my freedoms than someone born in Mexico. So if a Mexican family wants to come here to enjoy the same freedoms I do, then heck, I say make it as easy as possible on them to do so. They bring a lot to our economy, and they provide more competition in the workplace, and as a conservative, I believe competition is always a good thing.

So, that's a lot more than you asked for, but it's an issue that really angers me. What the conservative media is doing with this issue is flat out wrong, in my opinion. It's stupid politically, and they will pay for it, and then we all will have to suffer more of Obamadness. And even if you disagree with everything I've said, you should at least recognize that Obama is a WAY bigger problem for the country right now than Jose Mexicano. In fighting over this bill, you are taking your eye off of what is really important here: getting that wacko out of office.

[Canuckster1127]

Good points Jac. Many of the reasons you quote are reasons why I now consider myself an independent rather than a Republican. I still define myself as conservative. It's a classic case of what Reagan said about Democrats in his early life: "I didn't leave the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party left me."

Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity etc. are not purely conservatives; they are populists who are experts at tying into people's fears and emotions and fanning the flames against others without providing viable solutions and it took me a while in my life but I've seen through it now and don't want to have any part of it.

In terms of immigration, I'm an immigrant myself; a legal one and the efforts and cost it took to accomplish that help me to understand why so many either choose not to or more often cannot go that route. That doesn't make it right. It does illustrate that there's more at work here than the black and white issues that many try to draw. People lives and families hang in the balance and what some attempt to do with this issue is just flat out wrong, and I'll say that even beyond the perception issue, which is a valid point too.

[Jac3510]

I feel for those of you who came here legally, Bart. I have several good friends who have done--or are doing--it, and the price you have to pay is ridiculous. In any case, I am absolutely NOT a Republican, either. I'm a registered member of the Constitution Party, although I've not spent a lot of time looking at their views on this particular issue.

Frankly, I've gotten disenchanted with most of the conservative movement. I'm certainly not leaning liberal by any stretch of the imagination. I just hate libertarianism, which is what I feel most of these people are. The basis for my conservativism is the Moral Law. To take only one example, I believe in lower taxes and smaller government for moral reasons. Why should I be surprised, then, when it turns out that when you behave morally, you get the best possible economy?

But when you adopt a morality based conservatism, you can only be sickened at laws like this one. The points you made were absolutely on target. These are human beings and real families we are dealing with. People are so busy being selfish and worrying about "their" jobs that they don't stop to consider what kind of effect this will have--and is having--on people who just want the same freedoms and opportunities you and I have right now. It's sad. I can hardly see Jesus giving a big thumbs up to this one.

I just don't see anything good coming out of this at all . . . absolutely nothing.

[RickD]

Jac, Do you mean you don't support law enforcement being able to arrest people in this country illegally? Or is it something else that you don't support? I do see how people who are politicians that claim to be conservatives(ie Republican) may be doing harm to their political careers. If Democrats support amnesty for illegal aliens, those illegals would be much more likely to vote Democrat. Isn't it amazing how politicians will sell out just about anything for votes and political power?

Most of this post is why I disagree with the law. While everything you said here is popularly argued in the conservative media (and the media generally), almost all of it is rhetoric designed at inflamming passions. Surprisingly little has any actual basis in fact. Let me give you some examples:

1. You don't arrest people for infractions. You arrest them for crimes. Technically, it is not a crime to be here illegally; it is an infraction. What the Arizona law does is formally make it a crime to be here illegally. Thus, this law is NOT designed to enforce the law, as most argue; it creates new laws.

2. It is not the job of law enforcement to arrest people for being here illegally; it is there job to arrest people who break the law (i.e., drug trafficers).

3. No one, including Democrats, are supporting amnesty. Amnesty, by definition, is the pardon of offenses. If the illegals are granted amnesty, then there is absolutely no penalty. By asking them to pay a fine, back-taxes, learn English, and go to the back of the paper-work line, you are certainly not granting them amnesty. You are requiring them to pay their debt to society. In short, amnesty is NOT the same thing as a pathway to citizenship. That the conservative media attempts to make it as such is disingenuous and downright discpicable on their part.

With that said, why don't I support the law? Several reasons, the biggest of which is that it is simply unnecessary in that it creates a new crime. Second, it directs sparce resources away from extremely important issues, in that it asks law enforcement officers to focus on issues they did not have to before. Third, it risks harrassing real American citizens based on nothing more than race (note: I am NOT saying the bill is racist; that is such a tired argument). Before the law was passed, a natural born Latino teenager had nothing to worry about; now, he has to worry about cops making up reasons to stop him and verify his citizenship. If you don't think that is a big deal, ask yourself how you would feel if you were constantly having to prove you were a real American citizen.

Politically, I think this was downright STUPID of conservatives to push for the following reasons:

First, in politics, whether you like it or not, perception is reality. The law looks racist. Worse, it looks anti-immigrant. Note: it does NOT look anti-ILLEGAL=immigrant. It looks anti-immigrant because it requires ALL immigrants, legal or not, to carry immigration papers. And guess what? A state-issued driver's license is not sufficient. You have to carry around actual papers proving that you are here legally. It says, in effect, that good, law-abiding US citizens are presumed guilty until they prove their innocence. Like it or not, since that only applies to one ethnic group in practice, it looks racist. Now, if it is the goal of conservatives to be an all-white party, this was the perfect move to make. If it was their goal to alienate ALL Latinos, whether legal or illegal, they are doing that with breathtaking efficiency.

Second, conservatives would do well to make the 2010 elections about Obama and his idiotic policies. This gets them off message. It distracts from the government takeover of healthcare, the bad economy, massive decifits, runaway spending, and increased taxes. In short, it gives Obama and co. ammunition. Lations were angry at Obama for not pushing through immigration reform. All this is going to do is push them back into his corner, which will seriously jeapordize their chances in the mid-terms.

Third, this strengthens Obama's hand after the elections, whatever happens. Simply, he now has a mandate to do immigration reform. It doesn't matter if there is a Democrat or Republican congress. He will pass something--even if it is a solid, conservative, Republican plan--and HE will get the credit for it in the Latino community, which will make him almost unbeatable in 2012.

The bottom line is that this was STUPID.

So as not to only complain, let me offer a solution:

Conservatives need to adopt a pro-immigration platform rather than an anti-illegal-immigration platform. It not only makes economical and political sense, it makes moral sense. We are a nation of immigrants. It is absolutely wrong of us to do any less.

Second, we need to stop with the "secure the border" talk when discussing the immigration issue. We DO need to secure the border, but NOT because of immigration problems. That is a national security issue, no more, and no less.

Third, we need to make it very easy to come here legally so that people will not want to come here illegally. So long as we can confirm that you are not a felon in your home country and have no ties to terrorist networks, we should accept you with open arms. Once you are here, you get a probationary citizenship. You go two or three years without breaking the law, you become a permanent citizen. Come one, come all. We should also adopt a very open guest worker program.

Fourth, we DO need to offer a pathway to citizenship for those who are already here illegally. I'm sorry, but you just aren't going to deport 12 million people. Further, there is NO OTHER CRIME in this country that has NO forgiveness (except maybe murder). In every other crime, you pay your penalty and you are square with society. But conservatives act like illegal immigration is the unforgivable sin. You came here illegally? Sucks to be you! Go back to your home country! NO FORGIVENESS! Forget forgiveness . . . there's nothing they can even do to make amends?!?

And we wonder why minorty groups support liberals . . . we accuse liberals of selling out to pick up minority votes. Truth be told, we're pushing them into their arms by our anti-immigration policies. I may be a natural born American citizen, but I don't have any more natural right to my freedoms than someone born in Mexico. So if a Mexican family wants to come here to enjoy the same freedoms I do, then heck, I say make it as easy as possible on them to do so. They bring a lot to our economy, and they provide more competition in the workplace, and as a conservative, I believe competition is always a good thing.

So, that's a lot more than you asked for, but it's an issue that really angers me. What the conservative media is doing with this issue is flat out wrong, in my opinion. It's stupid politically, and they will pay for it, and then we all will have to suffer more of Obamadness. And even if you disagree with everything I've said, you should at least recognize that Obama is a WAY bigger problem for the country right now than Jose Mexicano. In fighting over this bill, you are taking your eye off of what is really important here: getting that wacko out of office.

Jac, you and Bart made some really good points in your posts. I haven't read the bill, and I'm not familiar with the current immigration laws either. I just have some questions about things in your post, Jac. I'm not sure I understand why it's an infraction to be here illegally, and not a crime. Doesn't being here "illegally" make it a crime? Are you saying the law as written now is more like a "speeding infraction"? I would think that since illegal immigrants are not being taxed on their income, that in itself would be enough for an arrest. I appreciate your answers, because this subject is new to me. Thanks

[Jac3510]

The "illegal" in "illegal alien" is popular terminology. They are undocumented, precisely because they haven't filed the proper paperwork. As a result, their "crime" is an infraction--well, it was, until the Arizona law, which codified the infraction into a bona fide crime.

As far as them not being taxed on their income, that is another myth. It's just not true. Most illegals have SSNs, even if they are fake. In fact, they actually OVERPAY on their income taxes, because their employers withold taxes from their checks, and then they don't get to file for a refund like you and I do. Further, they pay sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, gas taxes, and every other tax under the sun that all the rest of us do. The only ones who don't pay taxes on their incomes are those that get paid in straight cash, and if you are going to complain about that, you'd better complain a lot louder about how many Americans get paid under the table every day. In any case, even barring that, you don't arrest someone for not paying their taxes. You fine them and make them pay their back-taxes.

Conservatives are simply wrong to support this. They are morally wrong, politically wrong, and economically wrong. And you can blame conservative talking heads and talk radio above all for it.