Some verses I would like your opinion on...

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:40 pm

Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

I thought we are allowed to eat pigs now. What exactly are these verses saying? Not just the pig part, but I would like a better understanding of them.

RGeeB · Post by **RGeeB** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:32 am

Firstly, I would recommend trying to read these verses in the right context - I believe the one here is the description of the second coming of Christ.

The verses you refer to state the principle that Jesus can see through empty religious acts. The old cliche - 'God looks on the inside, not the outside', applies. God's work of salvation is not limited to one culture - Its for all the nations.
(My source for this one)

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:10 pm

what about the eating swine part? it kinda worries me, since my sabbatherian friend has been trying to get me to stop eating pork(not that i do it too often, but i like the occasional pepperoni pizza). I assumed it was referring to the fact that those which are damned will be eating pork(which could be referring to the decay in moral values of europe and north america, and the fact that these continents devour quite a bit of pork)

BavarianWheels · Post by **BavarianWheels** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:45 pm

Mastermind wrote:what about the eating swine part? it kinda worries me, since my sabbatherian friend has been trying to get me to stop eating pork(not that i do it too often, but i like the occasional pepperoni pizza). I assumed it was referring to the fact that those which are damned will be eating pork(which could be referring to the decay in moral values of europe and north america, and the fact that these continents devour quite a bit of pork)

I would hope that your Sabbatarian friend is only admonishing you to quit eating pork out of simple health reasons. Fact remains pork is not the greatest of healthy meats...ask any dietician. Eating pork will not kill you, excessive anything is not good.

However if s/he is telling you this as a condition of salvation, steer clear of this legalist!
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Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:50 pm

Romans 14:13-15
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.

I believe this verse to be more direct regarding whether or not some food is unclean and should not be eaten. Thus, there must be some context in which their eating swine in Isaiah is wrong. Perhaps it's part of larger statement of the morality of these people. Perhaps simply that since they have no Faith, their eating of pork and everything else is sin (for that which does not come from faith is sin - Romans 14:23).

One thing that is very clear though, is that it would be wrong for you to eat pork if it weakens your friend's Faith is some manner. To that end I think it would be biblical to a) not eat pork in his presence, and b) not try persuade him to act against his own conscience.

BavarianWheels · Post by **BavarianWheels** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:54 pm

Felgar wrote:Romans 14:13-15
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.

I believe this verse to be more direct regarding whether or not some food is unclean and should not be eaten. Thus, there must be some context in which their eating swine in Isaiah is wrong. Perhaps it's part of larger statement of the morality of these people. Perhaps simply that since they have no Faith, their eating of pork and everything else is sin (for that which does not come from faith is sin - Romans 14:23).

One thing that is very clear though, is that it would be wrong for you to eat pork if it weakens your friend's Faith is some manner. To that end I think it would be biblical to a) not eat pork in his presence, and b) not try persuade him to act against his own conscience.

I would agree...but that is not the types of teachings you give new converts! This knowledge is for "seasoned" Christians that are seeking better understanding of scripture. Not everyone understands the dichotomy.
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Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:02 pm

BavarianWheels wrote: I would agree...but that is not the types of teachings you give new converts! This knowledge is for "seasoned" Christians that are seeking better understanding of scripture. Not everyone understands the dichotomy.
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Fair enough. Also, after reading your post I started to think... Hmmm, maybe this non-pork-eater is not actually a Christian. And were that true, then he/she would not be Mastermind's brother in Christ and in that sense eating pork is completely moot.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:05 pm

both me and my friend are open minded and "seasoned Christians". We disagree on a lot of things, but they are usually trivial issues, like this one. Thanks for that Romans verse, I shall show it to him.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:23 pm

Mastermind wrote:both me and my friend are open minded and "seasoned Christians". We disagree on a lot of things, but they are usually trivial issues, like this one. Thanks for that Romans verse, I shall show it to him.

Actually read all of Romans 14 as a whole for a better understanding. The concept is basically that you'll be held accountable to your own convictions which I believe are very much prompted by the Holy Spirit... On smaller issues like this.

On thing that's kinda interesting is that Christians back then were talking about the exact same stuff... Paul was surely responding to what he'd heard the Christian community saying about each other.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:13 pm

Well, we just finished our "discussion". He continued to try and convince me eating pork is wrong, etc. despite numerous problems with his choice of verses(Old testament, given to the Jews, law fulfilled by Jesus, etc.), unable to refute Romans 14. Since I KNOW I don't want to keep debating this subject(it's like the third one we've had, and was by far the best in my opinion, but it is getting quite tiring), I asked him why he cuts his hair. According to Leviticus, that is against God's will, and I asked him if I can come watch his execution. He also refuses to stone homosexuals. Imagine that.

So he finally accepted Romans 14 and we agreed to do what we feel right(him not to eat pork and me to eat pork once in a blue moon like I usually do).

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:02 am

Mastermind wrote: So he finally accepted Romans 14 and we agreed to do what we feel right(him not to eat pork and me to eat pork once in a blue moon like I usually do).

A good conclusion of the matter.

Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Rom 14:5)