Evidence for God from Science

claysmithr wrote:Hi Blessed, I believe the cubes are slowly moved into more "torturous" territory as time goes on... and the end game of hell is the lake of fire, where all its inhabitants are burned forever in a similar state of distress.

God knows the beginning from the end. If God was going to just press a "Reset" button, he would have never sent his son to be tortured and killed for us. We have a relatively easy escape from Hell because of God's love for us, where as the demons have no hope.

The reason the demons want Hell filled is to spite God, but I can't imagine they can possibly think they can overthrow God.

I thought the same thing after reading the book. The cubes clicked and turned down this spiral void eventually (I assumed) pooping out the inhabitants into the lake of fire.

However if that is the case, I don't understand what the point is of reaping what you sow. Getting to start in a "nicer" place in hell higher up in the spiral? Per Hells Dominion the demon Brian walked with also mentioned reaping what you sow. As if it's some kind of "universal law". At least that's how it felt to me. Because It doesn't make sense that a nice person who was agnostic, perhaps due to life circumstances, or even someone who was verbally abusive to her kids like "Pudding" but otherwise an "good" person, or a drug addict, or thief etc, would eventually receive the same, equal punishment serial killers, child rapists, mass murderers and demons receive - burning in hells lake of fire for all eternity.

I cannot make sense of this in my mind because I am only human. And it doesn't fit any human rationale of justice. The Bible also mentions "outer darkness" "weeping" and "gnashing of teeth" as alternative (?) punishment to the lake of fire? So I always hoped there was some "lesser" from of punishment other than ALL burn in hell forever. I've known many kind and good people who were atheists (my ex or current GF amoung them) who I could not imagine, going to hell, if you are otherwise a kind and good person just doing the best you can... Making sense of this life and this world is hard enough. I just cannot imagine.

Revelation also says "and there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the devil and his angels" (or something like that). I don't know if Revelation is talking about the future or past. But it would seem hypothetically, if there was/will be a war in heaven ... evil thinks it can overthrow Gods rule (makes me sick just to think about it). In going out of the way to entice people into sin, it's clear evil wants as many souls in hell as possible. The question is why. Well .. I can't help but wonder if it's to compel God to press the reset button deleting everything there ever was from existance somehow.

I'm assuming if God eventually did this, only God would remain.

Blessed, I want to assure you that God knows the end from the beginning. If God foresaw that he would just hit the "Reset" button, after he (Jesus) was crucified, he would have never bothered creating in the first place, or dying a torturous death.

God knew the Angels would rebel, God knew that mankind would be fallen, and you could make the argument that God wanted things to be the way they are because 1) He is God, and 2) he wants ALL under his Lordship to rule the universe. If mankind wasn't fallen, how would we be put under his Lordship? God wants us to struggle with sin, until we accept Him to remove sin, or we reap death from sin.

At the end of the day, I believe all sin is equally bad as any other sin, and Hell would justly strip away the layers of the persons soul until they realize they are no better than the demons... beings committed to sin and rebellion... and therefore share the same fate in the end, when Hell is tossed into the lake of fire.

claysmithr wrote:Blessed, I want to assure you that God knows the end from the beginning. If God foresaw that he would just hit the "Reset" button, after he (Jesus) was crucified, he would have never bothered creating in the first place, or dying a torturous death.

God knew the Angels would rebel, God knew that mankind would be fallen, and you could make the argument that God wanted things to be the way they are because 1) He is God, and 2) he wants ALL under his Lordship to rule the universe. If mankind wasn't fallen, how would we be put under his Lordship? God wants us to struggle with sin, until we accept Him to remove sin, or we reap death from sin.

At the end of the day, I believe all sin is equally bad as any other sin, and Hell would justly strip away the layers of the persons soul until they realize they are no better than the demons... beings committed to sin and rebellion... and therefore share the same fate in the end, when Hell is tossed into the lake of fire.

I understand God knows all infinitely. So I can understand God putting us down here knowing man would fall. Knowing we would have to struggle with sin and make decisions.

No way all sins are not equal and not the same. When I was in college there was a missionary group called "Campus Crusade for Christ". We went back and forth on all sin being equal for what felt like hours as they thumped their Bibles at me. It was like talking to a wall.

Why does average Joe/Jane sinner deserve equal punishment in hell as a Stalin or Hitler?

Just recompense is a silver lining i got from Hells Dominion because the cubes inhabitants were being punished according to their deeds in life. Eye for an eye. Reap what you sow etc. This makes sense. But if all the cubes inhabitants eventually go to the lake of fire it just seems unfair.

There are many experiences, in fact thousands of NDE’s each with unique experiences. There is astoundingly central themes but every experience is different.
By and large after studying NDE’s for several years the most universal aspect is the overwhelming love and forgiveness our Father feels towards his children.
Im not trying to take away the importance of accountability because it’s a universal concept and it’s a biblical concept.
But the idea of hell from a NDE perspective, from overwhelming evidence of data in this field actually paints quite a different picture to the religious idea.
I know there are accounts of brimstone but they are not the norm. In fact a vast majority of NDE’s experience a positive and loving experience despite religious background. I also know that refutation to this argument is that it’s a big lie, a demonic illusion to pull people away from truth.
From my own studies into NDEs over the years, I don’t believe this to be true.
Firstly from the body of evidence there is by far an overwhelming experience of forgiveness and love. I know crazy right that Jesus would be so overwhelmingly compassionate and lovingly? Who would have thought!
And secondly because religious thought keeps us in bondage of fear. Curtailed to set belief or burn.
We paint it very cleverly in rhetoric, We distance ourselves, we place others by rebellion into the fiery pits of hell. God doesn’t chose it, we do. But the love of God for His children is paramount, it surpasses our understanding and is secured in love.
Of course there is accountability but does an honest and thoughtful and caring person who may not be Christian burn in hell for eternity in anguish??
An honest, spiritual, heartfelt expression knows this to be against the very nature of God. Goodness is good, caring is rooted in love, compassion is the language of God and the judgment of God is between Himself and each individual child. For we are all His children.
My faith is firmly planted in a God of love.
I don’t claim to know who will be saved and I would never assume to know who isn’t. Because God is so much more than my imaginations, His love is grandeur and His forgiveness beyond our understanding!

One of the hardest things to emotionally grasp about God is that He knew that people and angels would falter and yet did nothing.
I say emotionally hard to grasp because, intellectually, we can understand why He allows for His creation to be free and CHOOSE what to do.
He is LOVE and love never dictates and controls.

We simply have to accept that which is rational and reasonable and remember that emotions, while important, can blind us to superiour truths.

We also need to remember and realize that God reveals Himself and His plans in a way that the person that they are revealed to can understand and process and that means that while there will be SOME similarities, there was also be some differences due to cultures, upbringing and so forth.

Which is why Paul regardless of upbringing, culture or background God sees through to the very heart of the matter. Goodness and love has a narrative of its own. It’s not dependent on religiousness, I think the bible illustrates quite effectively the stark contrast between religion and a heart of love. They don’t walk very succinctly hand in hand and I don’t think they ever have.
It’s our folly to recognise the stark contrast in the past but fail to realise it now.
It’s hypocritical and not particularly insightful.

Blessed wrote:Also there is something else that's been on my mind about your book.

The demon called the cubes inhabitants "guests". Webster's Dictionary 1828 http://webstersdictionary1828.com defines guest as:

GUEST, noun gest. [Latin visito; Eng. visit.]

1. A stranger; one who comes from a distance, and takes lodgings at a place, either for a night or for a longer time.

2. A visitor; a stranger or friend, entertained in the house or at the table of another, whether by invitation or otherwise.

"Guest" would seem to imply a limited punishment. Is it possible hells punishment is finite?

Are the people in hell cubes "guests" as the demon said or does their recompense increase to the point they burn in hell forever. Or are they just in the cubes forever?

Also the demon said something about reaping what they sow, is their some kind of "force" or law" preventing the demons from punishing a cubes inhabitant worse than they want to... based on Reaping only what you sow?

'Guest' is a play on words in that mocking sort of way ... they are good at this...

Next question concerning restraining force: Yes, the word of God. The Lord says, what in Jer 17:10 and Isa 55:11 which provides the answer... to just degrees of recompense. In fact this is brought out by Jesus himself - see - Mat 10:15 and
Mat 11:22-24 and Luke 10:12-14 for more on this so I hope this answer the two post on this subject you had ...
-
-
-

claysmithr wrote:Blessed, I want to assure you that God knows the end from the beginning. If God foresaw that he would just hit the "Reset" button, after he (Jesus) was crucified, he would have never bothered creating in the first place, or dying a torturous death.

God knew the Angels would rebel, God knew that mankind would be fallen, and you could make the argument that God wanted things to be the way they are because 1) He is God, and 2) he wants ALL under his Lordship to rule the universe. If mankind wasn't fallen, how would we be put under his Lordship? God wants us to struggle with sin, until we accept Him to remove sin, or we reap death from sin.

At the end of the day, I believe all sin is equally bad as any other sin, and Hell would justly strip away the layers of the persons soul until they realize they are no better than the demons... beings committed to sin and rebellion... and therefore share the same fate in the end, when Hell is tossed into the lake of fire.

I will pick up where Clay left off and also answer Blessed's questions:

Is God all powerful? answer is yes... correct?

Since he is all powerful, why would he be afraid of granting intelligent beings a free moral will?

If God denied a free moral agency, than He would be denying his ability as all being all Powerful as well as all powerful to work thru all things justly. Thus if God prevented free will then God would be denying himself - his living character traits and nature as God. This he cannot do and will never do this, deny himself. If he did everything ceases to be... Selah

Iniquity was found in the head fallen angel, not placed. If Placed, that denies God is just to all. God foreknows all and knows all but since he is a God of the living and takes back no gift, calling, promise, his gift of life continues. If he makes life cease by means of non-existence, then he denies himself as the living God. Again, God remains true to himself and in this I am eternally thankful and not bitter.

The devil exploited God's character traits, knowing God will not deny himself, and of his own will decided to pit God's own nature and character traits against each other in order to prove to God he is not all he says he is. That is a root of iniquity and rebellion. He knew God would not zap him into non-existence so that would buy time to sway others to rebel with him.

God foreknew this thru this process of testing creation, refining it, exposes what evil is, deals with it, so as to bring to completion his plan mentioned in Revelation chapters 21-22 where there is no more evil, period. To make pure, you apply the heat and remove the dross. He does this justly for he is just to all.

The Lord shows mercy and grace, as that is his nature and character, in order to redeem fallen humanity and due to our being mortal we thus have another chance because he provides the choice when before there was none to return back to God - again God is just. Selah

That is how God's love works. God's love is not human love as it is being currently being redefined today to mean God is a Cosmic Gummy Bear in the sky by the Hyper Diaper Grace crowd and others as well to to justify apathy and works based salvation.

God's love is just, it shows wrath, issues just Judgment. God's love is slow to anger, merciful, kind, gracious, and also chastens. God's love is deep, vast and so wide we cannot fully comprehend it fully.

He views fallen humanity as his enemies lost in sins. He came to reveal why that is, and what is in the heart that makes it so. He did so in order to turn enemies into his friends and turn them away from being enemies by the power of the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus Christ to send forth the Holy Spirit - God himself to dwell in you, sealing you as his own - forever.

His love is just in that he sends forth a call to all to return to him. In this, free moral agency acts as a litmus test to sort out who belongs to him and who rejects completely. That is how His love is - just, righteuos - he protects his own.

When one dies, they go before God in Judgment and during this, all the mysteries about God's nature and character is revealed. With such knowledge as this given to a fallen person after they die, knowing that God will not take away life, if they were permitted into heaven - they would continue to exploit God's goodness, love, mercy, for their own selfish gain and turn heaven into a new hell as evidence by what we have done on this very earth in our mortal state.

Only in this mortal life is salvation and true change can happen - that is Just - that is love. There is no afterlife salvation possible due to the nature of eternity and knowing God in that state. I had to return, by God's grace, a grace that weighs heavily upon me, to this life to become born again in that I owe Jesus all my life - not part - all.

Sadly, people think God's love will change a person into a good person after they die so that Hitler and Jews he killed will be happy together, and that the folks John Wayne Gacey murdered will yup it up together in heaven as though nothing has happened... to allow that is not just nor is it loving...

Think hard on this...

People unknowingly and without discernment are actually pitting God's nature and character traits against each other to this day...in the church and outside it as well all n the name of love.

To see this and read this on this forum, well, breaks my heart. All I can do is pray and ask the Lord of Glory, God and Savior Jesus Christ - WAKE THEM UP!
-
-
-

B. W. wrote: There is no afterlife salvation possible due to the nature of eternity and knowing God in that state. I had to return, by God's grace, a grace that weighs heavily upon me, to this life to become born again in that I owe Jesus all my life - not part - all.

Sadly, people think God's love will change a person into a good person after they die so that Hitler and Jews he killed will be happy together, and that the folks John Wayne Gacey murdered will yup it up together in heaven as though nothing has happened... to allow that is not just nor is it loving...


-
-

Hello Bryan,

I'm still re-reading your response trying to take it in. Thank you for your time writing this. You should publish another book with these writings.

When you say afterlife salvation do you mean salvation in the afterlife in front of Jesus or salvation after the person is already cast out? Will God purify a sinner who begs for mercy at the Judgement seat and return them to a state before the fall AFTER they have seen Jesus? God has the power to do this correct? God could wipe my memories of sin as easy as I could wipe a computers hard drive correct?

Also - in regards to salvation: Doesn't God have the power to pardon anyone no matter what evil or good they have done in this life? Even if they lived in sin? The Bible says

Exodus 33:19

And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."

I've always taken this to mean God can pardon or convict anyone. Anytime. Any reason. In other words, Marilyn Manson (a lottery winners chance) could be pardoned into heaven. While Mary K Baxter could go the other way.

Is my interpretation of Exodus 33:19 correct?

In the meantime I found this video about another mans NDE in 1994. His experiences seem to match yours in many ways.
Standing on an invisible floor in blackness grabbed by a 13 foot tall demon matches another NDE I watched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gyP_xdMl8E


Some NDE's I'm seeing the person tells of instantly moving into darkess. The bible says every knee shall bow and that it's appointed unto man once to die then judgement. In your NDE you came to judgenment.

Why do many NDE's I'm seeing skip the judgement the Bible says they are due going straight to outer darkness, a cube, some neatherworld region (i.e. Former atheist Howard Storm) or engulfed by a brilliant loving white light?

Blessed wrote:

B. W. wrote: There is no afterlife salvation possible due to the nature of eternity and knowing God in that state. I had to return, by God's grace, a grace that weighs heavily upon me, to this life to become born again in that I owe Jesus all my life - not part - all.

Sadly, people think God's love will change a person into a good person after they die so that Hitler and Jews he killed will be happy together, and that the folks John Wayne Gacey murdered will yup it up together in heaven as though nothing has happened... to allow that is not just nor is it loving...

Hello Bryan,

I'm still re-reading your response trying to take it in. Thank you for your time writing this. You should publish another book with these writings.

When you say afterlife salvation do you mean salvation in the afterlife in front of Jesus or salvation after the person is already cast out? Will God purify a sinner who begs for mercy at the Judgement seat and return them to a state before the fall AFTER they have seen Jesus? God has the power to do this correct? God could wipe my memories of sin as easy as I could wipe a computers hard drive correct?

Also - in regards to salvation: Doesn't God have the power to pardon anyone no matter what evil or good they have done in this life? Even if they lived in sin? The Bible says

Exodus 33:19

And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."

I've always taken this to mean God can pardon or convict anyone. Anytime. Any reason. In other words, Marilyn Manson (a lottery winners chance) could be pardoned into heaven. While Mary K Baxter could go the other way.

Is my interpretation of Exodus 33:19 correct?

What I meant is simple - one cannot become saved in the afterlife and only in this mortal life can one become born again, not in the after life:

WHY?

Exo 33:19 Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

One who dies unsaved, remains that way in the afterlife due to how they treated all these attributes of God's Character mentioned in the verse by how they treated them in this life.

Exo 34:5 Now the LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation."

People game the goodness of God's character and nature...to get what they want in life with themselves in charge and God their servant to bow to their whims by playing God's nature and character traits against each other to get what they desire - no accountability, no judgment, etc and etc...

The character of God is revealed in the afterlife in a ex termly profound and thorough manner and then compared to ours...

An unsaved person, if allowed into heaven, with such knowledge would continue to exploit, manipulate, and take advantage of God's character and nature in heaven because he or she will not behold the majesty of the Lord.

Read: Isaiah 26:10n NKJV, "Let grace/favor be shown to the(transgressor), Yet he will not (act in righteousness both in judgment, deliverance and duties); (Because) In the land of uprightness he will (deviate from the moral standard), and will not behold (perceive/honor/respect) the majesty/glory of (YHWH)." Paraphrased with Hebrew word meanings brought out for clarity

Notice the phrase - Land of Uprightness - there is only one land of uprightness now and that is in heaven. Because the in the OT humanity has made the current earth, once good, upright land, into what now - how did humanity ruin what God once declared good in Gen 1:31?

Such a thing, God will not allow to happen in heaven - what one sows - they reap = by no means clearing the guilty...

That is why there is no afterlife salvation at all due to the revelation about God one receives.

We do like to look at things like this, but this life is a test, a fair test, and a just test - Selah...
-
-
-

Blessed wrote:...Some NDE's I'm seeing the person tells of instantly moving into darkness. The bible says every knee shall bow and that it's appointed unto man once to die then judgement. In your NDE you came to judgement.

Why do many NDE's I'm seeing skip the judgement the Bible says they are due going straight to outer darkness, a cube, some neatherworld region (i.e. Former atheist Howard Storm) or engulfed by a brilliant loving white light?

Simple answer, many do not remember it. You will hear folks say things like they knew incredible truths then but they cannot recall them after they got back. Some recall great love approaching a light but were prevented to go beyond it and came back to life so they report an all is well NDE and never realized that they love they felt may have been judging them.

It is a strange concept for the human mind to grasp how God's love will judge a person. It sounds great doesn't it?

So one reasons thusly: "God's love will judge me so it will be okay and I will make heaven as he is all love (however as the person has defined love on their terms). Forgetting how one takes advantage of God's love to get away with whatever they are doing - mocking it, manipulating it, using it, etc and etc. Well, that is exposed...in judgment in many various ways and means however God so chooses to do so.

Some are found guilty and you don't pass go and collect the 200 dollars and right away in bad place. Others resuscitate too soon to realize fully what is going on. Again after talking with a few folks, they know they were judged in an instant after pondering it for a moment.
-
-
-

Blessed wrote: Why does average Joe/Jane sinner deserve equal punishment in hell as a Stalin or Hitler?

Just recompense is a silver lining i got from Hells Dominion because the cubes inhabitants were being punished according to their deeds in life. Eye for an eye. Reap what you sow etc. This makes sense. But if all the cubes inhabitants eventually go to the lake of fire it just seems unfair.

One can say it's unfair that there is good in this life, and that those saved people get good stuff in heaven while the unsaved are in Hades and get bad stuff. Then at the final judgment the saved still get good stuff and the unsaved still get punishment, for eternity.

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:

Blessed wrote: Why does average Joe/Jane sinner deserve equal punishment in hell as a Stalin or Hitler?

Just recompense is a silver lining i got from Hells Dominion because the cubes inhabitants were being punished according to their deeds in life. Eye for an eye. Reap what you sow etc. This makes sense. But if all the cubes inhabitants eventually go to the lake of fire it just seems unfair.

One can say it's unfair that there is good in this life, and that those saved people get good stuff in heaven while the unsaved are in Hades and get bad stuff. Then at the final judgment the saved still get good stuff and the unsaved still get punishment, for eternity.

Some folks say it is unfair that there is evil in the world and God unjust because there is and does nothing to stop it.

Or God should have made a lollipop land of goodness in the first place if there really is a God who is good?

All such arguments do not consider who God is. That he remains true to who he is - his character and nature - and that He will not deny himself by going counter to his own nature and character traits. That his gifts, calling, and promises are without repentance.

God is just to all so he gave humanity and angels free moral will. If he denied that, then he is not just, nor all powerful.

He provides a choice when before there was none to return to him by his offer of a free gift. Acpet His offer, one is saved, reject that then one if forever eternally condemned. Which to proves God is just.

By being Just, God will remove evil in due time, justly. In doing this, he proves he is true to himself in all ways that He IS.

We, are living in that time frame, where the sorting out and refining process is at work. Later, all things will be made new with no sin, death, evil...

As Christians, we are part of a counter revolution against the forces of darkness that seek to rob, cause ruin, kill, hold captive, make people prisoners, and that shatter the heart. God is just and sent forth the Holy Spirit into our lives to reflect his character traits and be purged of our root causes of sin (also called sanctification) so we fight against the darkness of out times to show forth who He is on earth.

In all this, God remains just to all and moves everything to his desired end for he is all that he says he is and more than capable of accomplishing it.

Such questions that say it is unfair that there is evil in the world proves God does not exist or is just all because he does not stop evil right this instant and that God should have just made a lollipop land of goodness in the first place, do not realize that to do so would make God unjust if he acted unjustly in any manner and the universe would irreparably self destruct. Evil is temporary, it will cease, if we did our assignment as Christian followers of Jesus Christ, would there be a lessening of evil in the world? What is that assignment - well the Isaiah 61:1,2,3,4 way - how - Rom 8:11 - Col 1:11  -
2 Tim1:7 - 2 Pet 1:3...
-
-
-