Check this anti-abortion site out.

[Bill McEnaney]

Everyone,

For me, this article proves that every country should outlaw abortion. In Australia, some philosophers are arguing that mothers should be free to kill their babies after birth.

http://www.news.com.au/national/abortio ... 6286841396

Bill

[Kurieuo]

Everyone,

For me, this article proves that every country should outlaw abortion. In Australia, some philosophers are arguing that mothers should be free to kill their babies after birth.

http://www.news.com.au/national/abortio ... 6286841396

Bill

About bloody time they started being consistent. Maybe it will wake society up a little?

[Pierson5]

This is an interesting topic. I'm curious as to what everyone's take on the various studies showing that rates of abortion worldwide are the same whether the procedure is legal or illegal.* Not to mention when it is illegal, many women end up dying from the illegal procedures. Instead of outlawing abortion, wouldn't it be better to support companies like Planned Parenthood and education/availability for contraceptive use to prevent unplanned pregnancies and potential death altogether?


*Journals:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lance ... 8/fulltext
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html

News articles:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21255186/ns ... 20i2_WwUmQ
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162- ... s-highest/

[Ivellious]

Well, in industrialized countries, abortions are one of the safest medical procedures performed. Any statistic that is thrown out there saying otherwise is using the deaths in countries where abortions are not a medical procedure.

The problem with your argument that you will run into is that the Bible says abortion is wrong. Heck, Catholics believe contraception in general is wrong. You can't really fight the religion there because it is the religion.

[RickD]

Well, in industrialized countries, abortions are one of the safest medical procedures performed. Any statistic that is thrown out there saying otherwise is using the deaths in countries where abortions are not a medical procedure.

Ivellious, if an abortion is successful in its goal to end the pregnancy, then it is the most deadly "medical procedure". There's at least one death in every "successful" abortion.

[RickD]

Pierson5 wrote:

wouldn't it be better to support companies like Planned Parenthood and education/availability for contraceptive use to prevent unplanned pregnancies and potential death altogether?

So, it would be logical to support an entity(Planned Parenthood) that performs abortions(the killing of humans), to prevent potential deaths?

[Ivellious]

I wasn't referring to that. That's a debatable point that has no end. I was referring to those who claim the women involved in abortions routinely suffer massive and often fatal side effects of the procedure. I only meant to point out that it is a flat out lie that is presented when one says to a woman in the US, "Abortions are a dangerous procedure to you."

[RickD]

I wasn't referring to that. That's a debatable point that has no end. I was referring to those who claim the women involved in abortions routinely suffer massive and often fatal side effects of the procedure. I only meant to point out that it is a flat out lie that is presented when one says to a woman in the US, "Abortions are a dangerous procedure to you."

Have you ever done any research about the emotional damage that women who have abortions suffer? The guilt and regret that they have?

And, what's debatable about a human being dying during every successful abortion? Show me what's not factual about that statement.

[Ivellious]

Look, again I'm referring to PHYSICAL harm here. I've watched countless videos and read countless articles appealing to the concept of irreversible bodily harm and death caused to women by abortions, and that is a straight up lie, that is what I was saying. As far as emotional damage, I think it's a deeper issue than just "getting an abortion makes you sad." The social stigmas and absolutely vile ways that people treat people who get abortions is most certainly a good reason to be emotionally damaged by getting an abortion.

[Pierson5]

Well, in industrialized countries, abortions are one of the safest medical procedures performed. Any statistic that is thrown out there saying otherwise is using the deaths in countries where abortions are not a medical procedure.

Ivellious, if an abortion is successful in its goal to end the pregnancy, then it is the most deadly "medical procedure". There's at least one death in every "successful" abortion.

The point I was driving across is, it's safe when it's done legally (for the mother). When it is illegal, it is not a safe medical procedure. When it is not performed by trained, licensed medical professionals, not only are you losing the fetus, but possibly the mother as well.

Pierson5 wrote:

wouldn't it be better to support companies like Planned Parenthood and education/availability for contraceptive use to prevent unplanned pregnancies and potential death altogether?

So, it would be logical to support an entity(Planned Parenthood) that performs abortions(the killing of humans), to prevent potential deaths?

Abortions are not the only thing Planned Parenthood does. Here is a list taken from their site:

Planned Parenthood health centers focus on prevention: 76 percent of our clients receive services to prevent unintended pregnancy.
Planned Parenthood services help prevent more than 584,000 unintended pregnancies each year.
Planned Parenthood provides nearly 770,000 Pap tests and nearly 750,000 breast exams each year, critical services in detecting cancer.
Planned Parenthood provides more than four million tests and treatments for sexually transmitted infections, including HIV.
Three percent of all Planned Parenthood health services are abortion services.
Planned Parenthood affiliates provide educational programs to more than 1.1 million young people and adults each year.
Planned Parenthood has more than six million activists, supporters, and donors working for women's health and safety and our fundamental reproductive rights.

Education is the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies and thus, abortions. I think they are doing a pretty good job of doing this. If Planned Parenthood was shut down, not only are you losing all these other benefits, but the education benefits as well. There would be more unplanned pregnancies, and thus more illegally performed abortions. Seems counter productive to go after companies such as this. If you are truly pro-life, wouldn't you want to support these types of organizations?

[RickD]

Look, again I'm referring to PHYSICAL harm here. I've watched countless videos and read countless articles appealing to the concept of irreversible bodily harm and death caused to women by abortions, and that is a straight up lie, that is what I was saying. As far as emotional damage, I think it's a deeper issue than just "getting an abortion makes you sad." The social stigmas and absolutely vile ways that people treat people who get abortions is most certainly a good reason to be emotionally damaged by getting an abortion.

Ok, if you want me to concede that the mother is physically safer, getting an abortion from a licensed doctor, than from some backstreet hack, then I agree. What about what happens when the reality sets in that I just killed another human being that was relying on me for life. You honestly want to pretend that everyone who has an abortion doesn't know they had their own flesh and blood killed? The conscience has a pretty good way of letting us know when do something wrong, especially something as wrong as killing our own children.

[RickD]

If you are truly pro-life, wouldn't you want to support these types of organizations?

Support an organization that wantonly kills human beings, and hides that fact by claiming their real mission is stopping unwanted pregnancies? Is that a rhetorical question?

[Pierson5]

If you are truly pro-life, wouldn't you want to support these types of organizations?

Support an organization that wantonly kills human beings, and hides that fact by claiming their real mission is stopping unwanted pregnancies? Is that a rhetorical question?

You honestly believe they WANT to kill human beings? I disagree sir. I consider myself pro-choice, but never for a second consider abortion a good thing, even as a last resort. Decreasing abortion rates is always a good thing, no matter if you are pro-choice or pro-life. I would say that the vast majority (including those at Planned Parenthood) would agree with me. They don't hide the fact that they perform abortions, it's right there on their website. (see my post above).

But they do provide many, many other life improving and SAVING services. Wouldn't you agree that cancer screening and testing for STD's save lives? Would you also agree that preventing unwanted pregnancies through education prevents potential abortions and in turn saves the lives of the mothers (if abortion was outlawed)? I believe education is the answer. Outlawing abortion and taking down Planned Parenthood is not. Doing so would not only cause an increase in unplanned pregnancies and illegal abortions (thus not only failing to stop abortion, but also putting more lives (the mothers) at risk), but also an increase in STD's and many other ailments that these people work so hard to prevent.

If you have a better solution, I'm all ears. I'm always ready to change my mind.

[RickD]

Pierson5 wrote:

You honestly believe they WANT to kill human beings? I disagree sir.

Planned Parenthood is a business, that charges money to women, so their "doctors" can perform a service of killing human beings. Unless the definition of "want" has changed, then yes, they WANT to kill human beings for a profit. Nobody is holding a gun to planned parenthoods head, and making them perform abortions.

But they do provide many, many other life improving and SAVING services. Wouldn't you agree that cancer screening and testing for STD's save lives? Would you also agree that preventing unwanted pregnancies through education prevents potential abortions and in turn saves the lives of the mothers (if abortion was outlawed)? I believe education is the answer. Outlawing abortion and taking down Planned Parenthood is not. Doing so would not only cause an increase in unplanned pregnancies and illegal abortions (thus not only failing to stop abortion, but also putting more lives (the mothers) at risk), but also an increase in STD's and many other ailments that these people work so hard to prevent.

Since you're asking me, I never said I wanted to close down planned parenthood. I could never, in good conscience, give them money willingly. Having my tax dollars pay for abortion, is not my choice. Does outlawing first degree murder, stop murder? Of course not. But at least if abortion was illegal, then doctors in the US would have to face consequences if they were caught performing abortions.

Did outlawing chattel slavery in the US, stop slavetraders around the world? If we as a nation, can't stand up for the rights of those who can't fight for themselves, we as a nation, will not last.

[Murray]

<Image Removed -- please link to image with warning of graphic nature>

Can you say with a straight face that a moral and caring person can do this?

Most pro-abortionist have never seen how an abortion is performed, or a slaughtered fetus. They live in ignorance. Do not deceive yourself, abortion is big business and makes BIG money.