"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Nils wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 pmIn the same way as we all get “rights” in democratic societies, by laws that are based on the public opinion. (But you already knew that, or … ?)PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 amI too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.How did they get this "right"?
Nils
FALSE! There ARE instructions which categorically cover all deliberate killing that isn't done in war or defensively, as well as punishment noted for taking the life of an unborn child - there is no need to distinguish between the development level of whatever unborn child because it doesn't do so. And that ALL life is God-given and sacred re-enforces this. So you are ignorant as to what the Bible teaches on this. It takes study and not just Googling specific terms in a search box! That you don't believe what the Bible teaches is unsurprising. As ultimately, you only answer to one person: Nils. Christians have a higher Authority beyond themselves that have submitted to. And unless you submit to God, it is highly unlikely you would ever agree with the Christian view of the issue.NIls: If there is no godly law about killing young fetuses it isn’t unlawful to take there lives. So your question seems meaningless.
The unjustified taking of life is prohibited in the 10 commandments - Thou shall not murder.Nils wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:32 pmIf there is no godly law about killing young fetuses it isn’t unlawful to take there lives. So your question seems meaningless.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:36 amI find no indication of a godly law about young fetuses.You find no indication in the bible that the unlawful taking of a life is wrong?
Nils
Nils
I admire your willingness to hold on to your moral subjectiveness, you probably would have felt at home during the times of slavery when people had THE RIGHT to kill slaves, a right given by a democratic society and based on public opinion.Nils wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 pmIn the same way as we all get “rights” in democratic societies, by laws that are based on the public opinion. (But you already know that, or … ?)PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 amI too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.How did they get this "right"?
Nils
If a person believes there is no God / no ultimate authority that defines right and wrong, then it is understandable that all they can ever assert about any topic is mere personal opinion or a morality built upon subjectiveness and whatever collitions and majorities that have the power to enforce their view as to how things should go. In that view, right or wrong is whatever anyone decides it should be - in other words, it becomes a Darwinian battle of ideas, in which the powerful elements in society get their way. So in that way, right or wrong is determined by the success or not of enforcing whatever view - and that view can be anything whatever a majority desires it to be.Paul: I have a very hard time understanding moral subjectiveness...I really do.
I mean, do people that believe this not understand what it can lead to?
Do they not understand that there MUST be an objective good and bod for their to be ANY subjective view of good and bad ??
Philip, didn't you notice the conditional "if" in the start of the sentence? And to be clear, I didn't talk of any law that was only about young fetuses. I talked about some law about adults that in some way explicitely mentions young fetuses.Philip wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:06 pmFALSE! There ARE instructions which categorically cover all deliberate killing that isn't done in war or defensively, as well as punishment noted for taking the life of an unborn child - there is no need to distinguish between the development level of whatever unborn child because it doesn't do so. And that ALL life is God-given and sacred re-enforces this. So you are ignorant as to what the Bible teaches on this. It takes study and not just Googling specific terms in a search box! That you don't believe what the Bible teaches is unsurprising. As ultimately, you only answer to one person: Nils. Christians have a higher Authority beyond themselves that have submitted to. And unless you submit to God, it is highly unlikely you would ever agree with the Christian view of the issue.NIls: If there is no godly law about killing young fetuses it isn’t unlawful to take there lives. So your question seems meaningless.
Paul, what you say is correct but I don't talk about "unjustified" or "unlawful" taking of life!PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:51 amThe unjustified taking of life is prohibited in the 10 commandments - Thou shall not murder.Nils wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:32 pmIf there is no godly law about killing young fetuses it isn’t unlawful to take there lives. So your question seems meaningless.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:36 amI find no indication of a godly law about young fetuses.You find no indication in the bible that the unlawful taking of a life is wrong?
Nils
Nils
It is an objective blanket statement.
You certainly also know that slavery was permitted and even approved by Christian churches long before there were any modern democratic societies.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:54 amI admire your willingness to hold on to your moral subjectiveness, you probably would have felt at home during the times of slavery when people had THE RIGHT to kill slaves, a right given by a democratic society and based on public opinion.Nils wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 pmIn the same way as we all get “rights” in democratic societies, by laws that are based on the public opinion. (But you already know that, or … ?)PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 amI too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.How did they get this "right"?
Nils
Nils wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:01 pmYou certainly also know that slavery was permitted and even approved by Christian churches long before there were any modern democratic societies.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:54 amI admire your willingness to hold on to your moral subjectiveness, you probably would have felt at home during the times of slavery when people had THE RIGHT to kill slaves, a right given by a democratic society and based on public opinion.Nils wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 pmIn the same way as we all get “rights” in democratic societies, by laws that are based on the public opinion. (But you already know that, or … ?)PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 amI too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.How did they get this "right"?
Nils
Nils
Again, it is irrelevant what certain people calling themselves Christians did or thought about slavery. What matters is what the Bible teaches about it, and how it instructs we are to treat others. BTW, servitude in ancient Israel was NOT slavery as practiced in the Americas - it was only permitted via a contractual agreement and legal obligations on both sides. Also, the anti-slavery movement to ban American slavery was most prominently fought and led by Christians! And it was a major impetus for those in the North to see that issue as a major moral impetus for the Civil war continuing until victory / emancipation!You certainly also know that slavery was permitted and even approved by Christian churches long before there were any modern democratic societies.
Nils
And how do I know how to interpret the Bible without asking a Christian, and which Christian should be trusted?Philip wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:22 pmAgain, it is irrelevant what certain people calling themselves Christians did or thought about slavery. What matters is what the Bible teaches about it, and how it instructs we are to treat others.You certainly also know that slavery was permitted and even approved by Christian churches long before there were any modern democratic societies.
Nils
You missed my point. Paul said that subjectivity doesn't always get good results. I answered that objectivity doesn't get that either, see #114. And, of cource, there have been lot of Christians doing good things.
BTW, servitude in ancient Israel was NOT slavery as practiced in the Americas - it was only permitted via a contractual agreement and legal obligations on both sides. Also, the anti-slavery movement to ban American slavery was most prominently fought and led by Christians! And it was a major impetus for those in the North to see that issue as a major moral impetus for the Civil war continuing until victory / emancipation!
Nils wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:55 amAnd how do I know how to interpret the Bible without asking a Christian, and which Christian should be trusted?Philip wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:22 pmAgain, it is irrelevant what certain people calling themselves Christians did or thought about slavery. What matters is what the Bible teaches about it, and how it instructs we are to treat others.You certainly also know that slavery was permitted and even approved by Christian churches long before there were any modern democratic societies.
Nils
You missed my point. Paul said that subjectivity doesn't always get good results. I answered that objectivity doesn't get that either, see #114. And, of course, there have been lot of Christians doing good things.
BTW, servitude in ancient Israel was NOT slavery as practiced in the Americas - it was only permitted via a contractual agreement and legal obligations on both sides. Also, the anti-slavery movement to ban American slavery was most prominently fought and led by Christians! And it was a major impetus for those in the North to see that issue as a major moral impetus for the Civil war continuing until victory / emancipation!
Nils
A fetus is alive, if it weren't it would need to be terminated.Nils wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:54 pmPaul, what you say is correct but I don't talk about "unjustified" or "unlawful" taking of life!PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:51 amThe unjustified taking of life is prohibited in the 10 commandments - Thou shall not murder.Nils wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:32 pmIf there is no godly law about killing young fetuses it isn’t unlawful to take there lives. So your question seems meaningless.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:36 amI find no indication of a godly law about young fetuses.You find no indication in the bible that the unlawful taking of a life is wrong?
Nils
Nils
It is an objective blanket statement.
Generally I talk about justified and lawful killing of young fetuses. In the conversation above I was asking for evidence that there is a godly law making killing of young fetuses unlawful.
I hope this is clear now.
Nils
There is SOME debate as to what TYPE of slavery, regardless, that isn't relevant.Nils wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:01 pmYou certainly also know that slavery was permitted and even approved by Christian churches long before there were any modern democratic societies.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:54 amI admire your willingness to hold on to your moral subjectiveness, you probably would have felt at home during the times of slavery when people had THE RIGHT to kill slaves, a right given by a democratic society and based on public opinion.Nils wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 pmIn the same way as we all get “rights” in democratic societies, by laws that are based on the public opinion. (But you already know that, or … ?)PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 amI too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.How did they get this "right"?
Nils
Nils