A question for atheists

[Kenny]

RickD wrote:
Ok Kenny.

Two questions that you need to answer now.
1) how am I redefining atheism?

ken:
By trying to define it as a belief system

How would you define atheism? What rules should we follow ...

I define an atheist as a person who does not believe in God. Now what does that mean? I believe a person can even recognize what you or others call God may exist; he may believe in the existence of Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, or any of the Gods theists believe in; but if for whatever reason he doesn’t see them as a deity (perhaps he sees them as an advanced being, or something else) as long as he doesn’t believe he is a God he is still an atheist.

Personally I don't care for the term "atheist" I use the term on these forums because that is what people label me because I don't believe in God; but I prefer the term "skeptic". I see the term atheist as a pejorative theists came up with to describe those who don't share their theistic beliefs. but then that's another topic so I won't go there.

Ken

[abelcainsbrother]

Kenny wrote:
No, there are plenty of Atheists who believe in an afterlife like reincarnation. Atheists just don’t recognize a deity; that’s it; anything else you shouldn't speculate on.

Plenty of atheists believe in an afterlife like reincarnation? Really?

Do you realize how logically inconsistent that would be?

Atheists claim they don't believe in God because they think there's a lack of evidence, regarding God's existence. And since there's absolutely no evidence for reincarnation, that just isn't logical. In fact, for an atheist to believe in anything metaphysical, is not logically consistent with a belief that God doesn't exist.

Many sects of Buddism are considered Atheist because they don't believe in a Deity, yet they believe in reincarnation. All beliefs can look "logically inconsistent" to the non believer; even yours.

Ken

So you believe in reincarnation then?

I never said that!

It still does not change my point.You are borrowing from religion in order to defend atheism

We're talking about "theism" not religion. You DO know the difference; do you?

and for nothing because if you are wrong,you're in trouble,not me.

And if you're wrong, you are in trouble.

Atheism does not believe in an afterlife and you know it.

Of course not! Atheism is not a belief system.

Look at all the hoops you are trying to jump through in order to defend atheism.Buddhists follow the teaching of Buddha but he does not call himself a god.

There is nothing about Atheism to defend! I'm just pointing out the flaws in your logic and claims!

Ken

What do you know about religion and other god's in order to think I'm in trouble if I'm wrong? I have compared evidence and religions and know that if somehow Christianity was false the other god's and religions would be too and I would just die and not even know I believed in Jesus so I cannot lose.My odds are sound.

We are discussing Pascal's wager. Pascal's wager does not include your evidence. Care to try again?

Ken[/quote]

Who says so? I can modify Pascal's wager,there are no rules to it.And I cannot lose but you can with atheism.You cannot borrow from other religions like reincarnation and then drop it when I bring it up like you did.This is Pascal's wager applied to Atheism and Christianity,not any other god or religion that is another issue that does not apply here.This is if atheism is wrong you are in trouble but I win no matter what because since atheists do not believe in reincarnation this means if atheism is true I just die and that's it.and atheists say all the time that this is why we should value our time here with this life because when you die? That's it,yet if Christianity is true and it is then it means you are in trouble and on top of it you have absolutely no evidence atheism is true yet are taking a big risk when you die,as we all will.Like I said a person cannot hedge their bets with atheism with no evidence or reasons to believe it is true,it is a dumb choice based on odds.

All atheists have is a twisted interpretation of God,a twisted interpretation of God's word and they try to use this for reasons not to believe in God.It is to cover up their lack of evidence for atheism that they pride themselves on they don't need while demanding proof for God when they have no proof atheism is true.Don't be like that.

[Kenny]

I'm not defining atheism as a belief system, Kenny. It's already defined as a belief. Specifically, a belief that God or gods don't exist.

So you see a belief that God doesn't exist as a belief system? Well lets take this logic a bit further; how many other belief systems might I have?
*Belief Santa Clause doesn't exist
*Belief Lockness monster doesn't exist
*Belief Cookie monster doesn't exist
*Belief Buggs Bunny doesn't exist... and the list goes on
Now isn't that absurd? I could sit here and list a million things I don't believe, are you going to claim they are each a separate belief system? How many belief systems do YOU have?

2) what agenda do I have?

Ken wrote:
To make it out to be a belief system. It also appears to me you are trying to give the impression Atheism is an alternative to religion for non believers.

Kenny,
Could you explain what you mean by the underlined?

Judging from a lot of the things you say like claiming atheism as a belief system. Your religion may be a belief system for you but atheism is not one for me.

Ken

[Kenny]

Who says so? I can modify Pascal's wager,there are no rules to it.And I cannot lose .

You can modify Pascal's wager all you want and it will fall on death ears; you might as well be talking to yourself. As long as you continue to ignore the fact that from my perspective your God is no more likely than any other God, I will continue to remind you.

Ken

[melanie]

I don't really know that I would clasify atheism as a religion, but in saying that the definition of 'religion' varies a great deal depending on who your asking. It is often described to narrowly or too broadly.
I do not consider myself religious by my understanding of the term. Many definitions include a ritual type based worship, ceremonies, structured belief pattern, rules ect. That is why many Christians myself included do not believe that our beliefs are synonymous with religion.
I get why an atheist would see it the same.
Where it becomes a bit ambiguous is that when the term 'religion' is used it can broadly just be meant as a belief in God/Gods, or belief in the Divine. That belief in the Divine impacts the belief on the afterlife and the nature of the universe and its origins.
When loosely described this way, atheism does indeed have a view on the Divine, the afterlife, and the origins of the universe. It is in the negative but it is still answering questions based on really the same criteria. No God, no afterlife and the universe not Divinely created.
That is why the argument that I don't believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus falls a little flat for me. It is not the same.
They have no bearing on questions of the Divine or afterlife. Which are synonymous with religion.
When you have beliefs that start to answer the questions regarding Divinty, afterlife ect then by the very nature of the topic then you have crossed into the realm of religion as understood by many.
I'm not saying that I see atheism as a religion to be honest I'm not really sure, but I can see how that argument works.

Now I do believe that atheism is a belief system.
I really like this definition;
'Belief systems are the stories we tell ourselves to define our personal sense of Reality. Every human being has a belief system that they utilize, and it is through this mechanism that we individually, "make sense" of the world around us.'

All belief systems offer an explanation of something whether it be secular or non secular.
I can't see how atheism does not fit into this definition?

[RickD]

Kenny wrote:
I define an atheist as a person who does not believe in God. Now what does that mean? I believe a person can even recognize what you or others call God may exist; he may believe in the existence of Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, or any of the Gods theists believe in; but if for whatever reason he doesn’t see them as a deity (perhaps he sees them as an advanced being, or something else) as long as he doesn’t believe he is a God he is still an atheist.

Now who is redefining atheism?

Kenny wrote:
Personally I don't care for the term "atheist" I use the term on these forums because that is what people label me because I don't believe in God; but I prefer the term "skeptic". I see the term atheist as a pejorative theists came up with to describe those who don't share their theistic beliefs. but then that's another topic so I won't go there.

Kenny,

I'd consider you at best, a weak atheist, or agnostic atheist. If I had to classify you strictly going by definitions, you're agnostic.

Kenny wrote:
So you see a belief that God doesn't exist as a belief system?

Yes. When you take the set of beliefs that goes with the belief that God doesn't exist, that makes up the belief system.

Kenny wrote:
Well lets take this logic a bit further; how many other belief systems might I have?
*Belief Santa Clause doesn't exist
*Belief Lockness monster doesn't exist
*Belief Cookie monster doesn't exist
*Belief Buggs Bunny doesn't exist... and the list goes on
Now isn't that absurd? I could sit here and list a million things I don't believe, are you going to claim they are each a separate belief system? How many belief systems do YOU have?

Of course that's absurd Kenny. We are talking about belief systems that help us deal with the reality around us. When someone believes God doesn't exist, that belief affects how that person deals with reality. I already explained this, so please listen this time. If I believe God doesn't exist, it affects how I think the universe came to be. It affects how I see morality. None of those other things you listed has anything to do with how one looks at reality. As usual, you just don't understand the topic.

Kenny wrote:
Judging from a lot of the things you say like claiming atheism as a belief system. Your religion may be a belief system for you but atheism is not one for me.

That's probably because you're not really an atheist, by definition.

You've said that if you could be shown that God exists, you'd believe. That's more agnostic than atheist.

[abelcainsbrother]

Who says so? I can modify Pascal's wager,there are no rules to it.And I cannot lose .

You can modify Pascal's wager all you want and it will fall on death ears; you might as well be talking to yourself. As long as you continue to ignore the fact that from my perspective your God is no more likely than any other God, I will continue to remind you.

Ken

Yes,I know because you only think of it your way and know that you are wrong to look at it like I explained.You know that you lose and I win no matter what and what little you know about the different god's and religions does not change it.Pascal's wager does not apply to other religions anyway like you think,it applies to non-belief in God.

[Kenny]

I don't really know that I would clasify atheism as a religion, but in saying that the definition of 'religion' varies a great deal depending on who your asking. It is often described to narrowly or too broadly.
I do not consider myself religious by my understanding of the term. Many definitions include a ritual type based worship, ceremonies, structured belief pattern, rules ect. That is why many Christians myself included do not believe that our beliefs are synonymous with religion.
I get why an atheist would see it the same.
Where it becomes a bit ambiguous is that when the term 'religion' is used it can broadly just be meant as a belief in God/Gods, or belief in the Divine.

No, that’s theism. Many people seem to think they are the same, but there is a difference

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism

That belief in the Divine impacts the belief on the afterlife and the nature of the universe and its origins.

I disagree. Perhaps it impacts for theists, but for atheists who believe in the afterlife, or have opinions on the origin of the Universe, I don’t think lack of God belief makes a difference

When loosely described this way, atheism does indeed have a view on the Divine, the afterlife, and the origins of the universe. It is in the negative but it is still answering questions based on really the same criteria. No God, no afterlife and the universe not Divinely created.

Actually when it comes to the afterlife and the Universe, the view is often in the positive just as it is for the theist; it only doesn’t include God

That is why the argument that I don't believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus falls a little flat for me. It is not the same.
They have no bearing on questions of the Divine or afterlife. Which are synonymous with religion.
When you have beliefs that start to answer the questions regarding Divinty, afterlife ect then by the very nature of the topic then you have crossed into the realm of religion as understood by many.
I'm not saying that I see atheism as a religion to be honest I'm not really sure, but I can see how that argument works.

as I mentioned before, Buddhism is often seen as an atheist religion

Now I do believe that atheism is a belief system.
I really like this definition;
'Belief systems are the stories we tell ourselves to define our personal sense of Reality. Every human being has a belief system that they utilize, and it is through this mechanism that we individually, "make sense" of the world around us.'

The story I tell myself is secular based and has nothing to do with atheism nor theism. In theory, an atheist and a theist could tell themselves the same story. Would you describe them as having the same belief system?

All belief systems offer an explanation of something whether it be secular or non secular.
I can't see how atheism does not fit into this definition?

Individual atheists may have belief systems, but that belief system may have nothing to do with atheism. The belief system could be based upon the Golden Rule, helping others, making a difference etc. I agree a person could make atheism a belief system, but I don’t think that applies to most atheists.

Ken

[Kenny]

Of course that's absurd Kenny. We are talking about belief systems that help us deal with the reality around us.

Atheism has no affect on how I deal with the reality around me.

When someone believes God doesn't exist, that belief affects how that person deals with reality.

Not believing God exist no more affects me than not believing Santa Clause exists affects you.

I already explained this, so please listen this time. If I believe God doesn't exist, it affects how I think the universe came to be. It affects how I see morality. None of those other things you listed has anything to do with how one looks at reality. As usual, you just don't understand the topic.

First of all, we’re talking about ME not you. The problem is you seem to insist on believing atheism has as much of an affect on my life as theism has on yours. Theism affects your views on morality, the Universe, how you deal with others, etc. your entire outlook on life is built around your belief in your God.
Atheism does not affect me that way. As I told you before, Atheism is not an alternative to religion for me. I don’t know how I can make it any clearer than that.

Kenny wrote:
Judging from a lot of the things you say like claiming atheism as a belief system. Your religion may be a belief system for you but atheism is not one for me.

That's probably because you're not really an atheist, by definition.

You've said that if you could be shown that God exists, you'd believe. That's more agnostic than atheist.

How do you define Atheist?

ken

[abelcainsbrother]

Kenny Since Pascal's wager did'nt seem to get you to think about odds of winning when you hedge your bets and you don't seem to care about odds of winning but seem to be willing to take your chances whenever you die to realize you were right or wrong,blindly.

ll ask you this question.How long do you think you'll live,80,90,100? OK compare that to eternity and if you are wrong,you might live to be a ripe old age or you might not but eternity cannot even be calculated and yet if you are wrong its for eternity.The bible teaches us that the trials and tests we go through in this world is molding us and strengthening us for our duties in the future and yet this life we live is not even a speck of time.So how long do you think you will live?

[Kenny]

Kenny Since Pascal's wager did'nt seem to get you to think about odds of winning when you hedge your bets and you don't seem to care about odds of winning but seem to be willing to take your chances whenever you die to realize you were right or wrong,blindly.

ll ask you this question.How long do you think you'll live,80,90,100? OK compare that to eternity and if you are wrong,you might live to be a ripe old age or you might not but eternity cannot even be calculated and yet if you are wrong its for eternity.The bible teaches us that the trials and tests we go through in this world is molding us and strengthening us for our duties in the future and yet this life we live is not even a speck of time.So how long do you think you will live?

the problem is, you refuse to listen, and you refuse to accept the obvious when pointed out to you. Pascal's wager is an extremely flawed idea; most Christians I know acknowledge this. I pointed out the flaws back on 08/05/15 at 6:40pm, and rather than refute with I said, you tell me I can't think that way. Rather than constantly repeating myself, I figured I would just ignore your replies concerning this wager

K

[RickD]

RickD wrote:
Of course that's absurd Kenny. We are talking about belief systems that help us deal with the reality around us.

Ken wrote;
Atheism has no affect on how I deal with the reality around me.

RickD wrote:
When someone believes God doesn't exist, that belief affects how that person deals with reality.

Ken wrote:
Not believing God exist no more affects me than not believing Santa Clause exists affects you.

That's just not true Kenny. Anyone can see that by looking at your responses regarding OM. While you know OM exists, proven by your belief that rape is always wrong, you still refuse to acknowledge OM. Because acknowledging OM, means acknowledging that God exists. You can't get around that. So, instead of admitting the obvious, you just stick your head in the sand, all while mumbling, "Subjective Morality, blah, blah, blah."

Ken wrote:
First of all, we’re talking about ME not you. The problem is you seem to insist on believing atheism has as much of an affect on my life as theism has on yours. Theism affects your views on morality, the Universe, how you deal with others, etc. your entire outlook on life is built around your belief in your God.
Atheism does not affect me that way. As I told you before, Atheism is not an alternative to religion for me. I don’t know how I can make it any clearer than that.

I guess you missed the part where I said that you are more agnostic, than atheist.

Ken wrote:
How do you define Atheist?

Kenny,

I don't define atheist. I take the definition that it has historically been. One who believes God(or gods) doesn't exist.

[Kenny]

RickD wrote:
Of course that's absurd Kenny. We are talking about belief systems that help us deal with the reality around us.

Ken wrote;
Atheism has no affect on how I deal with the reality around me.

RickD wrote:
When someone believes God doesn't exist, that belief affects how that person deals with reality.

Ken wrote:
Not believing God exist no more affects me than not believing Santa Clause exists affects you.

That's just not true Kenny. Anyone can see that by looking at your responses regarding OM. While you know OM exists, proven by your belief that rape is always wrong, you still refuse to acknowledge OM. Because acknowledging OM, means acknowledging that God exists. You can't get around that. So, instead of admitting the obvious, you just stick your head in the sand, all while mumbling, "Subjective Morality, blah, blah, blah."

Yes I believe rape is always wrong, there are also other things I believe are always wrong that according to the Bible, may be considered right! now how does this fit into objective morality?

Ken wrote:
How do you define Atheist?

Kenny,

I don't define atheist. I take the definition that it has historically been. One who believes God(or gods) doesn't exist.

How is this different than what I believe?

Ken

[RickD]

kenny wrote:

Yes I believe rape is always wrong, there are also other things I believe are always wrong that according to the Bible, may be considered right! now how does this fit into objective morality?

As Byblos so eloquently said:

Ontology versus epistemology. High time you learn the difference.

You are conflating the two.

RickD wrote:
Kenny,

I don't define atheist. I take the definition that it has historically been. One who believes God(or gods) doesn't exist.

kenny wrote:
How is that different than what I believe?

Going from what you said about you believing God may exist if you could be shown that He exists, then the difference lies there.

Atheist: "I believe God does not exist."

Kenny: "I may believe God exists, if it can be proven to my satisfaction that He exists."

Like I said, you're more of an agnostic.

[Kenny]

Going from what you said about you believing God may exist if you could be shown that He exists, then the difference lies there.

That's the position of any honest atheist. If God were proven to exist, you no longer believe he exist, you know he exist. But until such proof is provided, I do not believe.

Atheist: "I believe God does not exist."

Kenny: "I may believe God exists, if it can be proven to my satisfaction that He exists."

Like I said, you're more of an agnostic.

Not quite; more like this
Atheist: I believe God doesn't exist

Ken: There is nothing that exist that I call God.

I phrase it that way because it would be foolish to tell a person who worships the Sun, or worships Nature and say their God doesn't exist.

Ken