Reason to believe

[1over137]

That was your opinion and your feelings Rob alias oldman. Indeed God will judge. Am glad that only he can judge. Not we - corrupted people.

May we all be finally blessed with salvation. That would be nice.

[B. W.]

Let's look at a few of your recent responses:

Please let me try and explain a little more of what I have been led to understand is the greatest and purest form of love...

Have you ever noticed how a loving father loves his little child and cares for each move his child make as it grows older? Have you ever noticed the deep devotion a loving mother has for her newborn child? Have you ever noticed the joy in the bond of love that can so often be seen in little children and their loving parents? Have you ever noticed how loving parents are all too ready to make self-sacrifice for their children in order to keep them in love and to win their love forever?

That is your definition of love - correct?

Well, what you defined as love is the Greek word for love - Storge which means:

Storge στοργή storgē this word can refer to either natural affection between parents and children, a duty-driven love for family, tolerance, familiarity, or love for one's enemies

a. Definition:
i. This love has its basis in one’s own nature.
ii. Storgē is a natural affection or natural obligation
iii. It is a natural movement of the soul for husband, wife, child or
dog.
iv. It is a quiet, abiding feeling within a man that rests on something
close to him and that he feels good about.

Definition of Storge are from these links...

http://cristinahaines.blogspot.com/2012 ... -love.html

http://www.mbcarlington.com/uploads/Gre ... 20Love.pdf

http://christianity.about.com/od/glossary/a/Storge.htm

This is not type the Lord Jesus Christ meant concerning Love between the Godhead and to us who trust in him.

Next...

No one comes to the Father but through Jesus Christ alone, but whether you like it or not, fact is, cannabis has helped me in my fallen state to see and reveal the truth more clearly. I am not saying you or anyone else here should start using it, I am simply giving you my testimony.

Yet here, by admission you admit another way which contradicts what Jesus stated about the only way. What you are saying is that for you, Jesus led you to cannabis, which does not line up with how Jesus says it is done... That should present a red flag to you...

Next you made this statement...

...infinite God of reason

This is a name of a spirit guide - a false spirit that is deceiving you - how do I know -

one -by your hostile responses to myself and Rick

two - how this spirit identifies itself by masking your words in heady but pseudo intellectual manner. There is a definite tone of reasonableness to its voice and this comes through you toward us here.

And three - by the power of the Holy Spirit that resides within me and upon me.

So far, no one is trying to tell you that you are not saved but only trying to warn you of being deluded and following another jesus and spirit that is guiding you. In fact, we are trying to help you from hearts of compassion and yet, the spirit in you keeps you hostile toward those whom the Lord himself sent to warn you so you can return to your senses.

Rick, myself, 1over137, and others have the Holy Spirit within ourselves and know the Lord and are known by him and any attempts to mock us by threatening that by confronting you, we are somehow blaspheming the Holy Spirit is another sign of a spirit guide at work in you that you need to fall out of agreement with and desire to dispel from your life and return the Lord Jesus Christ. Such threatenings will not work here with those who desire to see you set free and return to the Lord of Host...and are known by him and know him who is TRUE
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[oldman]

So far, no one is trying to tell you that you are not saved but only trying to warn you of being deluded and following another jesus and spirit that is guiding you.

Sorry B.W. but you are waffling again.


If I was deluded and following a false god as you claim then I would not be saved.

[Danieltwotwenty]

So far, no one is trying to tell you that you are not saved but only trying to warn you of being deluded and following another jesus and spirit that is guiding you.

Sorry B.W. but you are waffling again.


If I was deluded and following a false god as you claim then I would not be saved.

Christians and all humans follow after false idols all the time whether it be money, cars, sport, cannabis, alcohol etc... etc... just because your chasing a false idol does not mean you are not saved for we are saved by grace and not works.

I mean really, no one would be saved if chasing false idols kept you out of grace, but we should correct each other so that our interests or addictions do not stray us from the path of righteousness.

[oldman]

So far, no one is trying to tell you that you are not saved but only trying to warn you of being deluded and following another jesus and spirit that is guiding you.

Sorry B.W. but you are waffling again.


If I was deluded and following a false god as you claim then I would not be saved.

Christians and all humans follow after false idols all the time whether it be money, cars, sport, cannabis, alcohol etc... etc... just because your chasing a false idol does not mean you are not saved for we are saved by grace and not works.

I mean really, no one would be saved if chasing false idols kept you out of grace, but we should correct each other so that our interests or addictions do not stray us from the path of righteousness.

Yes, man is often falling into temptation and being led astray but if we show clearly that we remain convinced that our false god is the truth then we are clearly not saved.


Tell me then, do you also believe this is the work of a false god?



From the Father and the Son came their perfect and eternal love for each other. Their love is their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. The Son came from the Father and He naturally looks up to His Father, but without the Father's only eternal child there would be no possibility for an eternal God known as "love", "God is love", as Scripture clearly proclaims, and this love cannot exist with one person alone. This love, this God called love, needs at least two free thinking reasoning minds. Through the eternal Son the Father became the eternal giver of joy in perfect caring and sharing, and through the eternal Father His Son became the eternal receiver and giver of this same Spirit. Without the eternal Son there would be no such Spirit of pure and perfect eternal love; and it is this eternal Spirit that comes through the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son, all creation is governed. This Spirit naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person. It is this Spirit who will live and rule in all who will value Him above all others. Father Son and Holy Spirit are dependent upon each other for being what they are. All three are of equal value. 

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ reveals the meaning of His Spirit to fallen man, the love of the Father is the heart of His personality, His love is what governs His reasoning. His love given to and revealed to us through His Son is His righteousness, and this eternal Spirit of pure and perfect love that embraces all knowledge and wisdom is the Spirit of truth: There is no other Spirit of truth, this is obvious: Only the Spirit who is faithful to love unto death will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us.

The only true and perfect Spirit that came through the Father and the Son was also given to the angels who came after, and then to the first man Adam; but through pride and the desire to experience the unknown and gain a greater wisdom, this Spirit died in many of the angels and was eventually killed off in Adam also. Even so, by the grace of the Lord Jesus, this Spirit is being born in man again. All who are given faith in this Spirit will naturally have faith in the Son. All who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.



Loving parents of the world care for each move their children make as they grow older. There is a joy in the bond of love that can so often be seen in children and their loving parents, and such parents are all too ready to make self-sacrifice for their children in order to keep them in love and to win their love forever. This love is only in part, a reflection of the pure and perfect eternal love that comes through the eternal Father for His eternal Son, and for the lost souls of this world.



Jesus took a little child and had the child stand among them. Then he took the child in his arms. He said to them, “Anyone who welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me. And anyone who welcomes me doesn’t welcome only me but also the One who sent me.” Mark 9:36-37NIRV

Matthew 18:6-7 explains, “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of offences! For offences must come, but woe to that man by whom the offence comes!

Is not God the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? Yes, and those who see and know this Spirit: “the greatest in the kingdom of heaven”, revealed so clearly for too short a time in little children who are believing in Jesus (Matthew 18:1-5, Mark 9:33-37, Luke 9:46-48) and seek to corrupt, torment or destroy this Spirit, will never be saved for there is nothing left to save them, they condemn themselves. Matthew 18:6-7 explains, “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of offences! For offences must come, but woe to that man by whom the offence comes! 
Again, Matthew 12:31-32 explains, "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come". 

The Father's Spirit then given to each of His chosen gives new life by transforming their corrupted spirits back into perfect holiness, just as Adam and Eve were before the Spirit of truth in them was confounded and corrupted into something evil by their desire to know evil. The Spirit of God therefore will live in all His chosen ones and ultimately make their unique personalities perfect in knowledge, wisdom and love forever, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit given by the Father will never be broken again.

When the Son of God suffered and died for us He revealed to us His self sacrificing Spirit of perfect love: faithful to love unto death and the only way to overcome our old corrupt spirit of lies and delusion. By His finished work He has revealed in full the essence and character of the Spirit of truth, and we shall only be trusted to live with God forever when He knows we will faithfully give our lives for His sake, “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it” (Matthew 16:25). Saving faith in this atoning God then is all we need. We who have faith in this God will see His promised paradise where the free and infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything. Where this Spirit is never threatened or offended again there will be endless joy in free and endless creation.


Only the pure and faithful Spirit that is faithful to love unto death, will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us, such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, this Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which all can trust.


Speak now and reveal your true self.

[1over137]

I don't believe cannabis led me to God but I do believe God ultimately led me to cannabis in order that I could see Him and reveal Him more clearly.
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...and blessings to you too friend, but I ought to clear up a misconception here. What I actually told you earlier was that “I don't smoke it any more”, but I do occasionally eat it in small quantities.
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As I said, I appreciate your concern but if you really care to win me over to total abstinence from cannabis then you must give clear answers to my questions otherwise I cannot take you seriously.
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Tell me then, do you also believe this is the work of a false god?

Tell me oldman, why do you think that because you proclaim God and Jesus, God led you to cannabis in order that you could see him more clearly?
Aren't there other alternatives? For example, God did not lead you to cannabis and if he was revealed to you then it could be purely his work regardless cannabis.

Is it reasonable to claim that? Are you sure it is true? Why?

And why you still eat cannabis? What for, really?

[RickD]

Oldman,

fwiw, here's my take on what you wrote:

oldman wrote:
Tell me then, do you also believe this is the work of a false god?

Let's see...

oldman wrote:
From the Father and the Son came their perfect and eternal love for each other. Their love is their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. The Son came from the Father and He naturally looks up to His Father, but without the Father's only eternal child there would be no possibility for an eternal God known as "love", "God is love", as Scripture clearly proclaims, and this love cannot exist with one person alone.

I see a contradiction here. How can the son come from the father, and be an eternal son as well?

This love, this God called love, needs at least two free thinking reasoning minds.

Two free thinking, reasoning minds, implies two different minds. Which implies two different gods. Or one God(Father), and one son who is not God. So, your implications here show a false god.

Through the eternal Son the Father became the eternal giver of joy in perfect caring and sharing, and through the eternal Father His Son became the eternal receiver and giver of this same Spirit. Without the eternal Son there would be no such Spirit of pure and perfect eternal love; and it is this eternal Spirit that comes through the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son, all creation is governed. This Spirit naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person.

Sounds like gnosticism.

It is this Spirit who will live and rule in all who will value Him above all others.

So your idea is that all who value "Him" above all others, are those within whom this "Spirit" will live. As opposed to the biblical teaching that the Holy Spirit of God indwells those who simply trust Christ for salvation.

Again, different god.

Father Son and Holy Spirit are dependent upon each other for being what they are. All three are of equal value.

An Omnipotent God is not dependent on anyone for anything. Otherwise, He wouldn't be God.

Again, different god.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ reveals the meaning of His Spirit to fallen man, the love of the Father is the heart of His personality, His love is what governs His reasoning.

Where in scripture do you get the idea that the grace of Christ reveals the meaning of His Spirit to fallen man?

His love given to and revealed to us through His Son is His righteousness, and this eternal Spirit of pure and perfect love that embraces all knowledge and wisdom is the Spirit of truth: There is no other Spirit of truth, this is obvious:

There's that pesky gnosticism popping up again.

Only the Spirit who is faithful to love unto death will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us.

What does this even mean? Whose death?

The only true and perfect Spirit that came through the Father and the Son was also given to the angels who came after, and then to the first man Adam; but through pride and the desire to experience the unknown and gain a greater wisdom, this Spirit died in many of the angels and was eventually killed off in Adam also.

The Holy Spirit was given to the angels? Scripture please...
Adam had the indwelling Holy Spirit? Scripture please...
The Holy Spirit died? The Biblical Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity, and God Himself. The Spirit of God cannot die.

Again, different god. Different spirit.

Even so, by the grace of the Lord Jesus, this Spirit is being born in man again. All who are given faith in this Spirit will naturally have faith in the Son. All who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.

Biblically, that's not how it works. Show me from scripture, where a believer is given faith in a spirit.

Again, different spirit.

Without going through the rest of your post, I think you get the idea. You are promoting a different god, and a different spirit.

[B. W.]

oldman, please respond to Rick's and Hana's points...as these related to what I was preparing to write. Can you not see that you are under the influence of what is known as spirit guides?
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[oldman]

Oldman,

fwiw, here's my take on what you wrote:

oldman wrote:
Tell me then, do you also believe this is the work of a false god?

Let's see...

oldman wrote:
From the Father and the Son came their perfect and eternal love for each other. Their love is their endless joy in their pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. The Son came from the Father and He naturally looks up to His Father, but without the Father's only eternal child there would be no possibility for an eternal God known as "love", "God is love", as Scripture clearly proclaims, and this love cannot exist with one person alone.

I see a contradiction here. How can the son come from the father, and be an eternal son as well?

How can the Son not come from His Father and still be the Father's Son? Have you ever really studied the meaning of the words “father” and “son”?

How can a son come into existence without a father???


As hard as your finite mind finds it, the fact remains the Son must have come from His Father. They are not called “Father” and “Son” for nothing. If the Son was not the Son of the Father He would not have told us He was the Son of the Father.

The infinite mind of the Father knows everything, including the beginning before anything was made, He knows His first perceptions of His existence before anything was made. He knows when His Son first existed as another person before anything was made. The Father and the Son are one because the Son came from the Father and the Father and the Son love each other. In the beginning the Son was in the thoughts of the Father and the Son came from the Father before anything was made.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3

This love, this God called love, needs at least two free thinking reasoning minds.

Two free thinking, reasoning minds, implies two different minds.

Yes, two persons, two free perfect minds of reason, almost the same but not quite, The Father is the Father of the Son and the Son is the Son of the Father. A perfect Father and a perfect Son who came into existence, bonded together for all eternity by their perfect eternal love for each other.

This love is reflected (only in part) in the way that loving parents and children are bonded today, the difference here though is that their love is not perfect and all too often it all goes terribly wrong.

Which implies two different gods.

No, even the Reformed Church believes the Father and the Son are the first and second person of the Trinity. There are two persons spoken of in the Father and the Son, and together with the Holy Spirit we have the one true God.

The Father and the Son are in perfect union, bonded by the endless love they have for each other. Theirs is the perfect Spirit of endless joy in pure and perfect caring, sharing and giving to each other all that they are and all that they care to create. Theirs is the pure and perfect Spirit willing to make self-sacrifice for the endless well being of each other and for their creation.

Or one God(Father), and one son who is not God. So, your implications here show a false god.

To you, maybe. However, The Son came from the Father and He naturally looks up to His Father, but without the Father's only eternal child there would be no possibility for an eternal God known as "love", "God is love", as Scripture clearly proclaims; and without the Son, the God called love as we now understand love would not exist, neither would God's creation exist. What is more, we would not exist either.


I will reply to the rest of your post later

[Byblos]

How can the Son not come from His Father and still be the Father's Son? Have you ever really studied the meaning of the words “father” and “son”?

How can a son come into existence without a father???


As hard as your finite mind finds it, the fact remains the Son must have come from His Father. They are not called “Father” and “Son” for nothing. If the Son was not the Son of the Father He would not have told us He was the Son of the Father.

Oy vey! Do we really need to go back to trinity 101?

[RickD]

How can the Son not come from His Father and still be the Father's Son? Have you ever really studied the meaning of the words “father” and “son”?

How can a son come into existence without a father???


As hard as your finite mind finds it, the fact remains the Son must have come from His Father. They are not called “Father” and “Son” for nothing. If the Son was not the Son of the Father He would not have told us He was the Son of the Father.

Oy vey! Do we really need to go back to trinity 101?

Apparently we do. And Professor Byblos, thanks for offering to teach the refresher course.

[Byblos]

How can the Son not come from His Father and still be the Father's Son? Have you ever really studied the meaning of the words “father” and “son”?

How can a son come into existence without a father???


As hard as your finite mind finds it, the fact remains the Son must have come from His Father. They are not called “Father” and “Son” for nothing. If the Son was not the Son of the Father He would not have told us He was the Son of the Father.

Oy vey! Do we really need to go back to trinity 101?

Apparently we do. And Professor Byblos, thanks for offering to teach the refresher course.

Lesson #1: Trinity

[B. W.]

Oldman,

Do you attend a local Church?

If so, what is the name of the Church?

If not, you should consider attending one and learn about God...

Last question: Where did you learn about who God is?
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[jlay]

Sorry B.W. but you are waffling again.


If I was deluded and following a false god as you claim then I would not be saved.

Scripturally, this is not true. Jesus said that even the elect may be deceived. (Matt. 24:24) If a true beleiver could not be deceived, then why would Jesus and Paul both warn about it? There is a good bit of NT scripture that is simply focused on dealing with wayward believers.

If you have trusted Christ alone for your salvation, then you are saved. But I agree with my friends here. This boils down to your OP, which has to do with smoking pot to enhance one's spiritual awareness. 1 Peter 5:8-9. Your so called spiritualism sounds like a false spirit. Perhaps God, out of his love for you, has ordained our paths to cross, where you can receive Godly counsel and to repent of this nonsense.

[oldman]

Followed on from my previous post to RickD..

oldman wrote: Through the eternal Son the Father became the eternal giver of joy in perfect caring and sharing, and through the eternal Father His Son became the eternal receiver and giver of this same Spirit. Without the eternal Son there would be no such Spirit of pure and perfect eternal love; and it is this eternal Spirit that comes through the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son, all creation is governed. This Spirit naturally embraces all knowledge and wisdom and would mean nothing without being the heart or the innermost ruling character of a person.

Sounds like gnosticism.

Nothing like it.

It is this Spirit who will live and rule in all who will value Him above all others.

So your idea is that all who value "Him" above all others, are those within whom this "Spirit" will live. As opposed to the biblical teaching that the Holy Spirit of God indwells those who simply trust Christ for salvation.

When a man truly puts his trust in Christ he puts his trust in His revealed Spirit, which is something you do not do. Jesus Christ said, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.” Matthew 7:21; and we shall only do the will of His Father when we have received His Spirit. Whoever refuses to value His Spirit above all others cannot receive Him.

Again, different god.

To the one you worship, yes.

Father Son and Holy Spirit are dependent upon each other for being what they are. All three are of equal value.

An Omnipotent God is not dependent on anyone for anything. Otherwise, He wouldn't be God.

Father Son and Holy Spirit are God and are dependent upon each other for being what they are. All three are God. All three are equal in value and God depends entirely upon Himself for what He is, what He creates, what He loves and what He hates, what He keeps and what He condemns.

Again, different god.

Again you show your contempt for the truth.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ reveals the meaning of His Spirit to fallen man, the love of the Father is the heart of His personality, His love is what governs His reasoning.

Where in scripture do you get the idea that the grace of Christ reveals the meaning of His Spirit to fallen man?

None are so blind as those who cannot see what has been revealed and what is continuing to be revealed by the finished work of Christ.

His love given to and revealed to us through His Son is His righteousness, and this eternal Spirit of pure and perfect love that embraces all knowledge and wisdom is the Spirit of truth: There is no other Spirit of truth, this is obvious:

There's that pesky gnosticism popping up again.

And you still can't be trusted any further than you can be seen.

Only the Spirit who is faithful to love unto death will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us.

What does this even mean? Whose death?

Jesus Christ was put through the worst agony of hell and was eventually put to to death for our sakes. Some of His last words when He was being tortured to death were, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”. This is what I was referring to when I wrote, Only the Spirit who is faithful to love unto death will have no reason to deceive and offend any of us.” Such is the Spirit that is revealed by the Lord Jesus and by His true followers. This Jesus could not have lied because in His Spirit there can be seen no reason to lie. Recorded history tells us the faithful followers who knew Jesus were in the end prepared to be persecuted to death, even to be tortured to death rather than live a lie and deny what they had witnessed: His commandments and doctrine, the love and wisdom, the miracles, the promises, the crucifixion and the resurrected Jesus Christ. Despite all the efforts of hypocrites, malicious liars and antichrists, this Spirit lives on in all His true followers still. This Spirit is the only proven conveyor of truth simply because NO ONE can even begin to explain an alternative in which all can trust.

The only true and perfect Spirit that came through the Father and the Son was also given to the angels who came after, and then to the first man Adam; but through pride and the desire to experience the unknown and gain a greater wisdom, this Spirit died in many of the angels and was eventually killed off in Adam also.

The Holy Spirit was given to the angels? Scripture please...
Adam had the indwelling Holy Spirit? Scripture please...

Scripture tells us the angels were made perfect and man was made perfect. But without the Spirit of truth they would not have been made perfect. It is a matter of simple logical deduction.

The Holy Spirit died? The Biblical Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity, and God Himself. The Spirit of God cannot die.

The Spirit of truth can die and did die in certain angels, and later in Adam.

Again, different god. Different spirit.

To the god you worship, yes.

Even so, by the grace of the Lord Jesus, this Spirit is being born in man again. All who are given faith in this Spirit will naturally have faith in the Son. All who are of God have faith in this Spirit. Whoever will not have faith in this Spirit will remain a liar.

Biblically, that's not how it works. Show me from scripture, where a believer is given faith in a spirit.

The Son can be seen constantly revealing the meaning of His Spirit throughout the New Testament, and those who follow Him strive to do the Same. When a man comes to know the Spirit He is either drawn closer to God through faith in this Spirit or he is repelled by God.

Again, different spirit.

And you are repelled by God.

Without going through the rest of your post, I think you get the idea. You are promoting a different god, and a different spirit.

To the one you worship, yes.

Too bad you still can't explain the meaning of your spirit.